The White Council

Re: The nature of elves

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : What is perhaps most compelling about Middle-Earth is the : feeling of great age and noble history which is woven into : Tolkien's writings. Those of us who might admit to being old : enough to have read LOTR before the publication of the : Silmarillion may have felt this most keenly. I recall making : notations of the references to other "historical works" within : LOTR (such as the reference to "The Fall of Gondolin") and going : to a bookstore to order these "books" only to find they did not : exist (in print).

: : I felt (and feel) that the elves were the most compelling and : intriguing of Tolkien's creations and, now that I have read the : Silmarillion and some of the HoME, wonder if the whole history of : the three ages derives from a single event - the summons of the : Valar calling the elves to live in Valinor. A recurring theme : throughout Tolkien's works is that of the "fall", i.e. the : failure of individuals or a people to live up to their potential, : to follow the proper path, or the ill-advised attempt to be : greater than they can be (examples: the marring of Feanor; the : failure of the Noldor in Beleriand; the fall of Numenor; the : corruption of Saruman; the withering of Theoden and Denethor; and : Frodo's ultimate failure to cast the Ring into the Cracks of : Doom). Could these "falls" have occured but for the Valar's : summons which might itself have been a "fall" (I am trying to : avoid the religious connotations here because it is not my intent : to broach that subject)?

: : The nature of the elves appears to have been to love, foster, : cultivate and heal Middle-Earth. Summoning the elves to Valinor : appears to be contrary to their essential nature -- it took them : from Middle-Earth where their purpose lay. Naturally, some elves : declined to accept the summons and others turned back. : Ultimately the Noldor rebelled in order to return to Middle-Earth : where they establshed realms of great granduer and beauty. : Morgoth's Ring alludes to this briefly, discussing whether the : summons was contrary to Iluvatar's intent. Did the Valar make a : tragic mistake and did this "fall" weave itself into the history : of the three ages (Sam's word's in Cirith Ungol leap to mind re: : Galadriel's vial and the light of the Silmarils)?

: This calls to mind the essay on elven marriage in Morgoth's Ring : ...where it was stated that one of the few sorrows in Aman was : that there were some loves that could not be fulfilled (an elf : loving another elf who was married), and the Valar decided this : was the effect of the taintings of Middle Earth (from Melkor's : corruption of it) left upon the elves. So all elves in some way : were also "marred".

: Personally, i find Ingwë one of the most intriguing elves; so : little is really known of him, while he is portrayed as the : highest of the high elves. Besides in the Lost Tales, is there : any mention of Ingwë, Elwë and Finwë being elves of the : awakening? I assumed that Elwë at least could not be, since Olwë : is his brother (unless brother is meant in a fëar and not a hroär : way). I thought perhaps Ingwë was the first born elf..perhaps the : son of Imin?(-see War of the Jewels-). And on the topic of the : awakening elves, did these elves die the same way as the other : elves? It might be different for them, considering that they were : never truly born, and thus could never truly die...perhaps, when : "killed" they did not go to Mandos, but passed in time into a : reincarnation, where -different than the "born" elves- they had : no recollection of their past life. I always thought that if this : was the case, it might account for some of the extraordinary : elvish figures in Arda: Finrod, Galadriel, Fëanor, and perhaps : even Finwë, Elwë and Ingwë themselves (my side-stepping the : "death" of awakening elves might allow for these elves to be : reincarnations without altering the fact that Finwë was the first : elf to truly die)

: Well, there it is. Oh, another question...this might not be able : to be answered (did Tolkien distiguish between Sindar and Noldor : in The Fall of Gondolin...were these terms or the equivalent : -ie..gnomes- around at that time?)...is the House of Tree of : Gondolin possibly a Sindar house? Would there have been Sindar : lords in Gondolin, or were the higher possitions mainly

Well, I don't know if Tolkien changed his mind, but I've read that Ingwe was taken as the High King because he was the first Elf to awake at Cuivienen, not the first to be born. I don't think that the Elves who awoke were any different physically or spiritually from normal Elves (except, of course, that they're older), but I don't really have any material on the subject - just personal opinion. Also, I believe that Tolkien said that ALL Elves were reincarnated after spending a certain "purgatorial" time in Mandos (if they so chose).