The White Council

Re: extent of Dale

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : In LotR P. 1131f we are told that; "a host of the allies of : : Sauron that had long threatened the borders of king Brand : : crossed the river Carnen." I then started wondering at the : : extent of Dale- it seems rather large for a realm not even a : : century old if it reaches from Erebor to the Carnen, and : : presumably to the eaves of Eryd Lasgalen in the west. So I : : would like you all (especially mike, who seems to be especially : : concerned with Rhovanion) to ponder the size and extent of the : : realms in Rhovanion- Dale, Esgaroth (realm or "Free Town" like : : Venezia etc.?), Beornings north of Mirkwood/Greenwood the : : Great, any northmen realms at the roots of the Anduin (did Eorl : : take EVERYONE south?, what happened to Framsburg then?), : : Maethelburg, Beornings, Woodmen, anyone in the foothills of the : : Hithaeglir?

: : Trade with Gondor? populations? etc.? : : NT

: You're asking a lot of us. :)

Of course, I have to keep you on your toes (especially you Michael).

: I can share a few thoughts on these subjects, but please keep in mind I'm restricting my exrapolation/interpretation to the brief period at the end of the Third Age subsequent to the death of Smaug.

: I feel Laketown was incorporated into the kingdom of Dale. I used to believe it retained its independence, but Tolkien seems to imply Laketown was part of Brand's kingdom in "Many Meetings". In an early draft of that chapter Gloin tells Frodo that the Laketown is indeed part of the kingdom, but that was changed for final publication. The alteration may mean Tolkien rejected the notion (perhaps after looking at THE HOBBIT and seeing how Laketown supposedly remained independent).

: Gloin also told Frodo that Dale's borders extended all the way to the Carnen. All these lands were desolate during Smaug's tenure in Erebor, so it follows that Bard I and his successors would have been in a good position to oversee their recolonization by Men from northern Mirkwood and the lands south of Laketown.

: Did Eorl take EVERYONE south? No. The text indicates a few of the Eotheod stayed in the north. But they did not become a significant people. We hear no more of them and can only assume they either died out, moved away, or were just numbered ambiguously among those "Men of the Vales of Anduin" references Tolkien occasionally makes.

: The places where Northmen were said to have lived at various times during the Third Age include:

: 1) The lands north of the forest and along its northeastern : corner (beginning of the Third Age) (UNFINISHED TALES)

: 2) The forest south of the Men-i-Naugrim (Woodmen, throughout : the Third Age) (THE HOBBIT, LOTR, UNFINISHED TALES)

: 3) The Misty Mountains, north of the High Pass (THE HOBBIT)

: 4) The lands around Erebor (THE HOBBIT, LOTR, UNFINISHED TALES)

: 5) The lands along the Celduin as far as the Sea of Rhun : (THE HOBBIT, LOTR, UNFINISHED TALES)

: 6) The lands about Greylin and Langwell (Eotheod -- circa : 1977 - 2510) (LOTR, UNFINISHED TALES)

: 7) The lands east of Anduin between the Gladden and the : Carrock (Eotheod -- circa 1850 - 1977)

: 8) The lands east of Anduin between the Carrock and Mirkwood, : from the Men-i-Naugrim to 100 miles north of the Carrock : (Beornings, circa 2941 - ?) See also #10.

: 9) The East Bight and the lands eastward to Celduin (Vidugavia's : Kingdom of Rhovanion, circa 1100 - 1850)

: 10) The eastern vales of the Misty Mountains south of the High : Pass (late Third Age) (THE HOBBIT). These Northmen appear : to have become merged with the Beornings, or perhaps were : the majority of the Beornings, who controlled the High Pass : at the time of the War of the Ring. They appear to have : been extending northward from the plains above the Gladden : River.

: I don't know anything about the trade relationships of the various Northman realms with Gondor, except that Eotheod did not trade with Gondor (though they occasionally exchanged messages). Dale and Erebor became protectorates of the Reunited Kingdom and probably engaged in considerable trade with Gondor and Arnor.

: Populations:

: Eorl led 7,000 Riders south to Gondor's aid. That was nearly every man in his realm.

: The numbers of the hosts of the Elves and Northmen at the Battle of Five Armies appear to have been in the thousands, although the only significant number Tolkien mentions is the thousand Elf warriors who make the first real assault on the Goblins after Bard's faux defense line has fallen back with heavy casualties.

: I would guess there were in excess of 1,000 Northmen there (implying Laketown had a huge population -- though its people were no longer as numerous as they had been before the dragon came). Maybe it would be reasonable to suggest as many as 2,000, although I think that's a bit high. Dain's 500 Dwarves were considered a formidable force, though Thranduil was confident he and Bard had the clear advantage in numbers. He may have had 3-4,000 warriors present himself.

: I would also guess the Beornings and Woodmen would each be able to muster a few thousand men at the time of the War of the Ring. Say maybe 2-3,000, with possibly the greater number going to the Beornings. Dale's population probably grew swiftly and King Brand may have been able to muster several thousand warriors in defense of his kingdom, even though Dale itself was overrun and his people fled to Erebor for safety. I would guess somewhere between 5 and 10,000 warriors for Dale at the end of the Age (but let us not further speculate on how many were FULL-TIME soldiers).

Let us not, I mostly agree. However, to supply a force of 6500- 7000, Eorl must have had some very large agricultural base (we also know that the Vales were getting too small for their population, and they are actually rather large). Further, reading your post made me think of something else, does Bilbo not think of someone reaping hay etc. in the valleys below as they ascent the pass?, if so, who were they? (it seems ilogical to me that all of northern Eriador would remain empty after the fall of Arthedain and Angmar), northmen crossing the mountains and settling? survivors of the wars? NT- keep on your toes Michael;-)