The White Council

Re: A middle-earth based in christendom

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: I read the intriguing thread started by Finrod below and hope I can add to the discussion. I don't think Tolkiens writings were 'remotely inspired' by christendom as Judea suggests, but rather heavily inspired. Andreth the wise woman even hints at the coming of christ (the conversation between Finrod and Andreth) and Tolkien makes a reference to the virgin Mary in the same passage.

: The idea of the faith of men in middle-earth is very christian. The fall and the marring and the idea of original sin in both elves and men are further indications. Tolkien wrote that all elves and men had an inherent 'morgothism'...a corruption. The author himself (in one of his letters) calls the maiar an 'angelic' order (so Foster is on safe ground here).

: It's not entirely correct to say that the valar create the earth. It is a product of Illuvatar. The valar only fullfills the vision he gives them. However Judea, I think it moot to exemplify how midddle-earth defers from christendom. Of course it's not the same...there must be differences. Tolkien used christendom as he used other traditions, beliefs and myths (though to a greater extent) as a way of anchoring his mythology so it would become believable as myth in itself. To copy the bible would be shooting himself in the foot. The bible is supposed to be yet another collection of half truths coming from the 'true history' recorded in the red book. This technique Tolkien used widely and with great success.

: Well this turned into a rant and no mistake. I'm sure many will disagree, but there ye have my thoughts :) Must run.

: -Frode

welll, It seems to me I know less I thought I knew...who is Andreth, for example, and where does she refer to christ? but, if i'm not mistaken, Finrod was only in the first age, fought and died against Melkor, and every reference to him about a "savior" would have to be about Elendil, wouldn't it?

I don't think I know enough (or almost anything) about chritian mythology to argue this Tolkien-Bible point to point (satan's status in hell, for example) but I think I can match a few points:

Values in ME: as a story of good vrs. evil, it's very likely the "good" will follow chritian values: Tolkien was a christian, and it's not logical for him to let any of his good charachters to follow what he see as "evil" values- thus they'll follow what christians see as good values.(emm, a bit clumsily said, I hope you get the idea)

about the Valars-Angels..... (not again) the valar created the world, even if (and I say it wasn't so, but not now) they only fullfild eru's vision. They were the ones doing the actual work, and the details. that's a 'bit' different then the christean (or at least jewdeiam, i'm more familiar with) view of god creating everying, to the smallest details, on his own, and with few words. the shaping of the world in Tolkien's world is very different then in the Christian world, and that alone is enough to distinguish the Valar from the Angels (or Tolkien from christianity for that matter). perhaps for christians it's more easy to view the valar as Angel-like figures, but that doesn't mean it's what they are.

and a last question: were, and what, is the ancient sin Tolkien says the dwellers of his world inherit?