The White Council

Re: tom bombadil... NOT Eru

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : : : OK, let's see, what did I say? Oh yes, I said I believe it's a possibility that Tom is Eru, but I said I think it's "very unlikely". So let's not put words in my mouth.

: : First: Please accept my apologies for putting words in your mouth. The reason I guess I overreacted was that I had never considered that option, and I thought it silly. I never really liked Mr. Bombodil much, so that might be the reason for my strong reaction; him being Eru would disappoint me greatly.

: Apology accepted. I find it very unlikely that he's Eru, but I do acknowledge that it's a possibility, very s

: : : Let's turn the question around, is there any suggestion anywhere that may lead us to thinking he is a maia?

: : I always had the impression that all spirits and (intelligent) beings that were not elves/orcs, ents/trolls, hobbits, dwarves or men must be maias; I never saw any other possiblilites. But anyway, here is what it says in "Tolkien: An Illistrated Encyclopedia" (David Day): "Tom Bombadil - Maia master of the old forest. TB was the Hobbit name for the powerful and eccentric master of the Old Forest. Called Iarwen Ben-Adar, which means both "old" and "without father", by the elves, he was probably a maia-spirit that came to ME during the ages of starlight."

: : The terms "old" and "without father" certainly are appliable to the maiar. And to turn another question around to you, where does it say that a maia had to own alligence to a valar? And besides, there is nothing to indicate that he didn't (originally) owe alligience to one of them; when Melian abode in ME, did she ever do anything out of reverence to "her" valar? By the way, something that struck me now was that maybe Tulkas was his valar? Just a thought...

: : Anyway, I'll agree with you that there might be a slim chance TB is Eru, but that is VERY slim...:) It is an interesting thought though. It struck me, that if one of the characters in ME might be Eru, it would rather be Cirdan. He was among the elves that woke up at Cuivienen, thus the first of the children of Illuvatar. He has seen all the ages of the world since that time, and he seems to have played a rather passive, though important role thought all history; kind of a figure in the backround, ever present but hard to notice at first. But he is always THERE... And he will stay untill the last elf of ME has left, thus leaving the world of men to itself (as was planned I think; for not everything was foreseen through the music of the Auinur). Also, he is separated from all the other elves by his beard.

: : Just a thought. Very unlikely, but it is fun to theorize sometimes.

: : I hope to hear other thoughts.

: In the Silmarillion, it states in the section "Of the Maiar" that the are "the people of the Valar, and their servants and helpers". That's where I got that whole allegiance thing from. But I even expanded it. Even a renegade Maia like Radagast still stays somewhat true to his Vala, Yavanna, in that he continues to aid nature. At the very least Radagast understands the concept of ruling over things and desire. Tom does not. He dominates nothing, and is dominated by no one, making him totally free.

: One man who used to frequent this board (and still does occasionally), Martin Read, suggested that Tom is an Ainur that descended after the Valar and Maiar. This would not put him in either class, which leaves lot's of room for Tom's oddities. However, he wouldn't have been there since the beginning, unless the whole acorn/raindrop thing was not the first ever, but rather the first acorn of the Old Forest and the first raindrop of the Withywindle River. In which case he would no longer be considered primeval.

: Melian eventually returned to her Vala (Irmo) and was with him long before that. Plus she demonstrated qualities of Irmo. Tom does not, of anybody.

If Tom had allegiance to a vala it would probably be Oromë I can think of two clear reasons. 1. Oromë was the master of the forest, (Aldaron I think is one of his names) Tom is the "greatest" in the Old Forest. 2. As a hunter Oromë would probably not force his men to be with him, but let them fight evil in their own way. We got no evidence that prooves that Tom was neutral and there is an old saying "Those that are not against me are with me."

Meneldur

: Basically, I think Tom's in a category all by himself (except for maybe Goldberry). I don't think he can be put in a category because he's not like anything. So all that's left to do is leave him alone and appreciate how great he was (how free, how happy, something few acheive, I could go on, I wrote a critical paper on it).