Science fiction and fantasy: Xenite.Org -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web!

The White Council

Re: Aranarth and the Dunadan Social Revolution

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

Archive index

Tolkien and Inklings Forum
Middle-earth Mailing List
LoTR movie news
LoTR collectibles
Liv Tyler is Arwen
Elijah Wood is Frodo Baggins
Tolkien Middle-earth at Suite101
LoTR movies forum
All Forums

  Posted by Martin Read on December 15, 1999 at 04:37:50
In Reply to: Re: Aranarth and the Dunadan Social Revolution posted by David Freitag on December 14, 1999 at 02:38:01:



: Very interesting. You may have put your finger on an important difference between Middle Earth and our world (Later-Day Middle Earth, if you like). In our world, most royal-aristocratic societies used a religious based theory to provide the justification and/or purpose of their rule, whether you call it "Divine Right of Kings," "Mandate of Heaven." Rulers ruled because it was their place in the scheme of things to rule. Social contract theory is associated with the rise of middle class, "bourgeois" societies: not necessarily nice and democratic, the first social contract theorist, Thomas Hobbes, argued for a morally unrestricted "Leviathan" state (a king ruling by divine right had at least to amke a show of conforming to his sponsoring God's rules, if they happened to be written down or widely known in other ways, while Rousseau's mumbo-jumbo about "Popular Will" crept into both communist and fascist ideological blather. We in America and most modern democracies take our cue from John Locke.

: Back to Middle Earth. You seem to be saying that the Dunedain might have been an aristocracy ruling by a social contract, whether conscious or implied. This makes sense in a world where there is no instititutionalized religion and some sense of direct contact with God (at least with very few intermediaries.)

: Indeed, you posit a very radical and unheard of thing (unless we can interpret the events of 1989-93 in this fashion): the rulers saw that they could not uphold their end of the contract and thus disolved it, while then acting behind the scenes to redeem thenselves. Jefferson, argued that when rulers violate the contract, the people have the right to "disolve the bonds that tie one people to another," he never argued that the British should have voluntarily renounced such ties, though they might have been better off to do so. (As far as I can tell, the British system was, in 1776, somewhere pretty well along in the gradual evolution towards a social contract based system with divine rights window dressings which they have today. No other divine right aristocracy allowed itself to so evolve: the contract had to be renegotiated with blood in Paris and St. Petersburg.

I can think of one slight parallel, at the end of Roman rule in Britain the Emperor Honorius wrote to the leading magistrates of Britain telling them to govern themselves as he was unable to spare soldiery to militarily re-occupy Britain. As Honorius could have dispatched a governor (vicarius) a few officials and tax collectors with little trouble, his actions could be seen in the same light as the actions I have proposed for Aranarth. Strange, I never thought of Honorius as being an honourable character before.

As regards the British political system in the 18th century, the monarchy had been given a little helping hand by the people towards constitutionalism. The English were the first people in Europe to successfully revolt against absolute monarchy (though it was rarely as absolute as continental monarchies even at an earlier time). Indeed we had two revolutions one in the 1640's, known as the Civil War, and then again in 1689 (The Glorious Revolution)when James II had forgotten the lessons of the first and needed reminding. James' successors, William and Mary were under no illusions about where real power lay in Britain (England effectively)- in Parliament. Any residual power that the monarchy was left with was seldom ever exercised in practice.

: I mentioned parallels with 1989-93. Well, the Soviet system claimed to be a social contract based on an admittedly flawed theory horribly manipulated to justify a terrible regime. But, in a sense, during those years, everyone not only became aware that the theoretical justification was bankrupt, but were willing to say so, and so, with remarkably little bloodeshed (outside Romania) the system just fell apart. So, in a strange way Aranath and Mikhail Gorbachev may have a lot in common, and, in the sense that those apparatchiks who took positions of power in the post communist states were nto just trying to save their asses and hold onto (diminished) power, but were trying to play a role in the liberation and transformation of their countries, that is had a small measure of honest patriotism (even in a corrupt system) not all are corrupt. Thus Yeltsin is, in a very muddled sense, a ranger. Now that's a strange thought...

Indeed :)




Tip: Earlier messages, if they are missing when you click on the links, may be in a lower-numbered archive. Edit the URL in your browser window to change the archive number. Ex. archive_02/ becomes archive_01/.
Tip: Click on the Tolkien and Inklings Forum link to followup to archived messages. You'll need to copy the text from this message and repost it in your new message.


The Tolkien and Inklings Forum is an SF-FANDOM Web site.

SF-FANDOM is a part of the Xenite.Org network.

Xenite.Org is home to Lord of the Rings movie news. The Tolkien and Inklings Forum is the Web's oldest fan-run forum dedicated to J.R.R. Tolkien.

Xenite.Org has been providing the most comprehensive Lord of the Rings movie news on the Web since February 1998.

Xenite.Org also brings you Xena Online Resources. Xena Online Resources is the Web's largest directory of Hercules and Xena-related content.

The Xenite.Org network is home to more than 100 science fiction and fantasy Web sites.



The Tolkien and Inklings Forum is an independent, moderated forum provided as a courtesy to fans of J.R.R. Tolkien and the Inklings, including C.S. Lewis, Charles Williams, et. al., by Xenite.Org. Please be sure to review our Posting Policy before participating in our forums. This archive is provided as a courtesy of Xenite.Org and in no way implies or imparts any liability or obligation on our part to uphold or maintain the content provided herein. This message and other archived messages from Xenite.Org forums may contain content not necessarily endorsed, reviewed, or approved by Xenite.Org and/or its moderation staff. All opinions expressed in these archives are those of the original posters and do not necessarily represent the views and opinions of Xenite.Org, its owner or owners, moderators, administrators, and/or other volunteer staff or agents. All content is copyright the original poster unless otherwise noted. This page is copyright © 1997-2001 Michael L. Martinez. All rights reserved. No reproduction, electronic or otherwise, may be made without the express permission of the copyright holders, except as occurs in normal browser caching and search engine indexing. You may print one copy of this page for your personal use.