The White Council

Re: Druedain

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : I don't think that hobbits are mutants. Pygmies are small but they aren't mutants.

: : : : : : : : Then again, pygmies aren't 2-1/2 to 4 feet tall. Pygmies are from 4 to 5-1/2 feet tall, in their indigenous cultures. And with modern nutrition, people from those tribes are not significantly shorter than average.

: : : : : : : : Additionally, pygmies are not a separate sub-division of the human species, as hobbits are. Pygmies are as human as any other group or individual of any background, whereas Tolkien specifically made a distinction between humans and hobbits.

: : : : : : : So, that would make Hobbits a subspecies, like Neandertals (albeit much smaller and smarter)?

: : : : : : : : And anyway, I was kidding about the "mutant" thing (being flip).

: : : : : : : : Sorry if I came across as insensitive.

: : : : : : : Don't worry, you didn't.

: : : : : : : : Cheers.

: : : : : : : : Dave C-Q

: : : : : : Still, no one really knows what they are, even themselves. Sure, the Holbytlan have been passed down, but I have found nothing in Tolkien's writings, any of them, that indicated exactly what they were. But, I think one thing is important--two (or possibly three) hobbits went to the Undying West, and that would have been impossible without Iluvatar's permisson. so maybe they're also the Hidden Children of Eru. Any ideas?

: : : : : The Hobbits were admitted into Aman because of the roles they played involving the Rings of Power. As for not knowing their origins, they just didn't give a hoot.

: : : : Okay, let's set the record straight on the origin of Hobbits:

: : : : HoME,V12,p310; "Hobbits on the other hand were in nearly all respects normal Men, but of very short stature... They were not as numerous or variable as ordinary Men... In their unrecorded past they must have been a primitive, indeed 'savage' people... With Men of normal stature they recognized their close kinship..."

: : : : HoME,V12,p313; "It was a mark of all kinds of Men who were descendants of those who had abjured the Shadow of Morgoth and his servants and wandered westward to escape it - and certainly included both the races of small stature, Drugs and Hobbits."

: : : : And the clincher, LotR, prologue, p18; "It is plain indeed that in spite of later estrangement Hobbits are relatives of ours... Of old they spoke the languages of Men, after their own fashion, and liked and disliked much the same things as Men did... The beginning of Hobbits lies far back in the Elder Days... Hobbits had, in fact, lived quietly in Middle-Earth for many long years..."

: : : : So, we have... : : : : "in nearly all respects normal Men... close kinship... descendants... later estrangement... relatives of ours..."

: : : : I think 'mutants' is quite an apt description, don't you?

: : : They aren't mutants! They just evolved to suit their needs in their habitats. I think Mr. Martinez covers something on that subject in his Parma Endorion.

: : Agreed, they aren't mutants. I was just continuing to bandy about the term lightheartedly. My point was that they did indeed evolve from Men, and were not 'created' or 'magically altered'. I think we're given enough information to form that hypothesis. BUT, did they "just evolve to suit their needs?" Or, possibly, were they shunned, segregated, and/or isolated, due to their height FIRST, and then adapted? If so, they evolved NOT from genetic superiority, but from genetic inferiority. Maybe not mutants, but certainly freaks or outcasts.

: : I don't know, I'm just hypothesizing. I think we lack any information to prove it either way. I suppose some early Men 'spreading out' in certain areas could have benefitted from smallness of size and fleetness of foot, rather than strength and height.

: : Anyway, is there agreement that simple evolution, or natural selection, is responsible for Hobbits? I am new to this site, and am unaware of Mr. Martinez's Parma Endorion. Maybe you could enlighten me.

: : >>>I am probably in over my head, but how could we explain the origin of Druedain? They were men. Hobbits were men. Perhaps they were three seperate races of men created by Eru. If we try to explain the origin of hobbits, I think we also should try to explain the origin of Druedain. : - Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod

The origins of the Druedain are touched on in the same sub-chapter as that of Hobbits in HoME,V12. Its titled 'The Atani and their languages' - further proof of the descent from Man. But the passage that links all 3, I will give again:

"...ALL KINDS OF MEN WHO WERE DESCENDANTS OF THOSE WHO HAD ABJURED THE SHADOW OF MORGOTH AND HIS SERVANTS AND WANDERED WESTWARD TO ESCAPE IT - AND CERTAINLY INCLUDED BOTH THE RACES OF SMALL STATURE, DRUGS AND HOBBITS."

Also, in Unfinished Tales, the Druedain are constantly referred to in relation with OTHER MEN. In other words they WERE Men.

As I said, I believe they can both be 'chalked up' as products of natural selection. To pinpoint their origins, with no other evidence, is like trying to find OUR 'missing links'. At this point, I think we can learn more from Darwin than Tolkien. Ironic, though, that here we are arguing that Man is a common ancestor for both shorter and more primitive 'hominids'. Kind of a 19th century debate, with a twist!

Heorrenda