The White Council

Female Inheritance

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : In my opinion, Elrond's relation to the Kings of the Noldor is irrelevant. With the fall of Gil-galad at the end of the SA the waning of the Elves began in earnest as, no doubt, Elrond would have perceived. The Kingship of the Noldor would have become something of an hollow title at this point.

: Elrond's relationship to the Kings of the Noldor is not irrelevant to my question. My question was not whether or not Elrond should or could be King (I, too, do not think he desired it, though I think he could have made a legitimate claim, had he wished to, which he did not). My question was why Mr. Martinez thinks that no legitimate inheritance can pass through the female line. He responded that he did not say that was his belief. I then quoted a post from he which implied that very belief. (Or words to that effect).

The contents of the original post had diverged somewhat, and I was merely stating my opinion that Elrond was a weak choice upon which to base an argument. However, I assume that Mr. Martinez is probably referring to a passage in Aldarion and Erendis when he asserts that inheritance could pass only through the male line. Specifically, the passage relates to the changing of the Numenorean law of succession under Tar-Aldarion:

But elsewhere the new law is formulated differently from this.  The fullest and clearest account states in the first place that the 'old law', as it was afterwards called, was not in fact a Numenorean 'law', but an inherited custom which circumstances had not yet called in question; and according to that custom the Ruler's eldest son inherited the Sceptre.  It was understood that if there was no son the nearest male kinsman of male descent from Elros Tar-Minyatur would be the Heir.

I suppose the question here would be "from whom did the Numenoreans inherit this custom"? In one case we have the Eldar (or perhaps I should be more specific and say the Noldor); in the other, the Edain. Unfortunately, the issue becomes somewhat clouded since the Edain themselves seem to have possessed different laws of succession.

The Houses of Beor and Hador apparently practiced the custom of primogeniture (at least according to the family trees laid out in the Silmarillion), whereas the Haladin seem to have acknowledged the right of a female heir to assume the leadership of the tribe. However, with the death of Brandir the line of Haldad came to an end (at least according the family trees given in the Silmarillion) - what remained of the blood of It's chieftains was preserved only in the person of Earendil son of Tuor, son of Huor, son of Hareth, daughter of Halmir.

It is my opinion that the 'old law' was probably derived from the 'traditions' of the Houses of Beor and Hador. Whether or not this line of reasoning can be applied to the kingship of the Noldor (or even the Sindar) is a matter of conjecture.

: : It is also possible that Elrond simply did not have (and perhaps never had) any desire to be a king. A similar case could be made for Galadriel, as she specifically chooses the title of 'Lady' of Lorien rather than 'Queen' (although her right to claim a royal title does not seem to have been in question).

: JRRT states that Amroth son of Amdir died and left no heir. Then Celeborn and Galadriel went to Lorien as gaurdians not as king and queen. As neither were the heir of Amroth neither could claim a royal title regarding Lorien (at least not as far as legitimately inheriting the Kingdom of Lorien). Both could, in my opinion, however, claim other royal titles: Celeborn was a prince of Doriath and of the Sindar descended of a house of princes; Galadriel is a princess of the Noldor and descended of a house of princes and the granddaughter of kings through a junior line. Similarly Elrond is a prince of both the Noldor and the Sindar directly descended of Kings on both sides directly through senior surviving lines(not to mention the Edain and being part Maia).

The implication which I derive from UT (and this is open to debate) is that Galadriel would have been well within her rights to claim the title of Queen (not as the heir of Amdir or Amroth, but as the daughter of Finarfin, and a princess of the Noldor), but that she purposely chose not to. I believe that this is in accordance with Tolkien's development of her character in the TA. In particular, her realization that she no longer desired to rule lands of her own.

: In the previous thread, that this thread was started from, you posted something to the effect that: Galadriel commanded an army (? of Elves and Dwarves?) that relieved Elrond from attack allowing him to escape northwards from Eregion with the survivors of Eregion and his army, during the War of Elves and Sauron (or words to that effect. I apologise in advance if I am mis-remembering). I can not find a reference to this. I can find where Celedorn leads a sortie, where Dwarves are sent by command of Durin and with them come Elves of Lorien led by Amroth, but I see no mention of Galadriel commanding the force. Please state your reference.:) Thank you.

It was Amroth who commanded the force. My mistake.