The White Council

Re: The First Elves (continued)

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : In reply to Heorrenda:

: : : : It's a long time for early generations of Elves -- more than enough : : : : time for several generations to be born and raised. From Year of the : : : : Trees 1050 (when they awoke) to Year of the Trees 1105 (when the Great : : : : Journey began) was 55 Valian Years, which were equal to approximately : : : : 526.9 Years of the Sun. An Elven child generally grew to maturity in : : : : the equivalent of 50-100 Years of the Sun. And the Elves would wait : : : : for some time between children (say 25-50 years). So, 526.9 years : : : : would be enough time for 2-3 generations to be born.

: : : : The problem with assuming that Elwe and Olwe were second generation, : : : : however, is that there is no opportunity for them to have cousins : : : : (kinsmen) such as Cirdan and Eol (if Eol was indeed supposed to be : : : : their kinsman -- he poppin in and out of the family tree).

: : : Again, could not kinsman (not necessarily cousin) of Elwe mean any one of : : : the following:

: : : 1) grandson of Olwe? (he had many children, according to HoME,V10); & : : : Cirdan was not necessarily born at Cuivienen.

: : Yes, but Cirdan was definitely alive during the Great Journey. It seems highly unlikely he was the son or grandson of Olwe (and Voronwe's mother was Cirdan's kinswoman, so there is another level of complexity which must be dealt with).

: Why is it so difficult to believe a 4th generation Elf could be born on the Great Journey, when a 3rd generation can so easily rise to prominence before the March???

: : : 2) son or grandson of Elmo??

: : Elmo's descendants appear to have been limited to the tree published in UNFINSIHED TALES.

: : : 3) brother, or nephew of Olwe's wife???

: : Unless she was related by blood, this is virtually impossible.

: : : 4) silver-haired member of the Lindar (Teleri)???? : : : 5) simply a member of the Lindar?????

: : Christopher suggests that only the family of Elwe had silver hair.

: Christopher?... suggests??... C'mon.

: : : None of which void the possibility of 2nd generation for Elwe & brothers.

: : Why is it so important for them to be 2nd generation Elves?

: Well, its NOT, as I mentioned previously. But it IS the whole premise of my debate. I'm attempting to rationalize the possibility (I think, *probability*), that the 3 ambassadors were the eldest sons of the 3 Elf-fathers. I do this, taking into consideration the great tradition of Elves concerning blood, eldest sons, heirs, and power & respect.

: : : : Tolkien doesn't say WHY the ambassadors were chosen. Orome may have taken the only three guys willing to ride with him (or whatever) to the ends of the world.

: "3 of the Eldar came forward daring to go" (LT1)

: : : : I will note this, however, in having reread the story of the first : : : : Elves. Tolkien writes that "144 was for long their highest number", so : : : : they didn't start having babies right away.

: : : Therefore, if enough time elapsed for, say 2-3 generations under normal : : : circumstances, maybe this last fact would tend to lean the argument more : : : towards the 2nd than 3rd.

: : I don't believe so. Tolkien implied large numbers of Elves undertook the journey (and, in "Laws and Customs of the Eldar", he indicates that many Elves had already died, so they were definitely replenishing their numbers by the time the Great Journey began).

: Agreed, I stand corrected!

: : : : Also, most of the Noldor came from the second group of Quendi claimed : : : : by Tata. The groups were: : : : : 6 -- Imin, Iminye, Tata, Tatie, Enel, Enelye : : : : 12 -- the Minyar (later the Vanyar) : : : : 18 -- the first Tatyar : : : : 24 -- the first Nelyar : : : : 36 -- the second Tatyar (ancestors of most Noldor) : : : : 48 -- the second Nelyar : : : : The second group of Tatyar are said to be dark-haired and tall, and : : : : were "strong like fir-trees", so they seem to have been unusual among : : : : the Elves. This is the only reference to hair color among the first : : : : Elves that I can find.

: : : Yes, and enough references are made, I think, to conclude that the : : : Vanyar, Noldor, & Lindar, were the 'Eldar' of the Minyar, Tatyar, & : : : Nelyar respectively. Thus Ingwe, Finwe, & Elwe should have some : : : correlation with the original Clans. In fact Elwe & Olwe are cited as : : : already being chieftans of their Clan (the Nelyar) BEFORE the Separation : : : (HoME,V11,p380). This final fact should be the clincher! How could 3rd : : : generation Elves be chieftans before the Separation, when it is said (on : : : the same page, no less) that after the original 144 awoke, "...these : : : proportions were approximately maintained until the Separation." The : : : operative word is *approximately*; signifying a few more than 144? : : : Quite possibly those few were Ingwe, Finwe, Elwe & Olwe alone?? Maybe : : : Imin, Tata, & Enel were allowed offspring so soon for the express purpose : : : of being heirs, chieftans, or ambassadors???

: : See above. Some of the Elves had died and some had disappeared. And THE WAR OF THE JEWELS doesn't say that Elwe and Olwe were the only chieftains among the Nelyar. It merely says that when these two chieftains were resolved to depart, many of the Nelyar were persuaded to take the journey after all.

: I find it hard to believe that there were 'too many chieftans & not enough Nelyar'. With all we know about Elves, how could Elwe & Olwe be elevated to chieftans so indescriminantly? Being the sons of Enel would be a logical assumption, IMHO.

Sons, no. Direct descendants, yes.

: Heorrenda