The White Council

Re: What if...

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: Hardly. Glorfindel was important enough to have been considered as one of the Istari, and though Tolkien subsequently changed his mind this does show that he thought Glorfindel a very special individual indeed.

Padster, you totally miss my point. I am well aware that Glorfindel was very powerful and wise, however that has little to do with his knowledge of Bombadil. My contention is that Elrond knew next to nothing about Elrond (besides his existence) and since Glorfindel most likely knew less, we should totally discount his comments ON BOMBADIL. That is not to say his comments on other matters should not be taken with the utmost seriousness, but those on Tom should be almost totally disregarded because they are seeminly unfounded.

: : Aulë disobeyed Eru, so I don't think it's out of the question that Ulmo would disobey Manwë, though I admit it is unlikely.

: Yeh and then Aulë ate the largest humble pie in existance. The Valar just were not into disobeying the order of command. And Aulë didn't actually disobey in the manner that Ulmo would have to disobey Manwe in order to help ME.

Still, to disobey Eru is a far greater crime than to disobey Manwë.

: : I don't, especially if he came with the Vanyar like he did in the First Age. Even without them I don't think it would matter. Eonwë was seeminly enough to handle Morgoth, so I think it's safe to assume he could handle Sauron. The Ring just makes Sauron whole again, all the power in it came from his original power, that of a Maia, it's not like the Ring elevates him to a Valarian standard. I've always personally doubted the strength of Sauron. Personally I think the disembodied Istari could have defeated him (all five at once). If they couldn't defeat him using all their true powers, why did the Valar not allow them to have all their powers?

: No way. Eonwe only overthrew Morgoth because Morgoth was a mere shadow of his former self. Are you suggesting that Eonwe could have taken down Morgoth at any time? Sauron with the one Ring was mor epowerful than Morgoth was at the end of the First Age. Therefore it is highly questionable that Eonwe would even stand the smallest chance of taking Sauron mono-e-mono. As for the Istari, well they have no chance at all. Sauron, as Tolkien says it, is of the same group as Saruman and Gandalf, except he is of a far higher order. Nuff said.

Eonwë absolutely could not have beaten Morgoth in his prime, but Tulkas did, and Morgoth was far more powerful than Tulkas. And at a Maian standard I think Morgoth is comprarable to Sauron and Tulkas is comprable to Eonwë. Therefore I think Eonwë could bust up Sauron, especially since Sauron's physical power (meaning the strength of his men) was far weaker than Morgoth's. And though I have read that Sauron was stronger than Morgoth at the end of the First Age, I think it's ridiculous. It would be believable if Sauron had the One, but since he didn't, I can't see how it is possible. Plus Eonwë really beat Morgoth AND Sauron in the First Age. And that's a big difference.

And when I spoke of the Istari, I don't think you truly read what I was saying. I was not suggesting that Saruman or Gandalf or any of them were stronger than Sauron, I was suggesting that if they were not restricted in power and were brought back to their power level in Valinor before then Third Age, that then Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, Pallando, and Alatar could COLLECTIVELY throw down Sauron. Even if Sauron was twice as strong as Gandalf, I'm sure with Saruman, Radagast, Palland, and Alatar, that Sauron could be overthrown. Just think about it, if the likes of Aragorn and Denethor could mentally rumble with Sauron, I think that an even-more-powerful-than-Gandalf-the-White Gandalf and the other four Istari with their native power, could take Sauron.

Jon

: Cheers

: Padster