The White Council

Aragorn's Line of Battle at the Morannon (was Re: Rangers of the North (again!!))

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: While there are marked dissimilarities between the stand before : the Black Gate and the Battle of Hastings, I think that the : assertion that there is not "the vaguest resemblance between : the two battles" is somewhat overbold. It is also : inaccurate...

Well, "inaccurate" is simply wrong. There are no real similarities between the two battles.

:...Let us look at some of the similarities (while the website : listed above is a decent one, it is given to some : editorializing and inaccuracies, might I recommend the : following: http://www.historyserver.org/hastings/Contents.html as being a slightly better account though I have a few : quibbles with it as well).

Let's not quibble over online sources, then.

: On to the analysis: : Aragorn and his men set themselves in a defensive position on a : hill (there were in fact two hills, but the positions were : virtually identical so we can look at just Aragorn's hill as : exemplary).

[snip]

Incorrect. Let's start with a citation from Tolkien:

   Little time was left to Aragorn for the ordering of his battle.   Upon the one hill he stood with Gandalf, and there fair and   desperate was raised the banner of the Tree and Stars.  Upon   the other hill hard by stood the banners of Rohan and Dol   Amroth, White Horse and Silver Swan.  And about each hill a   ring was made facing all ways, bristling with spear and sword.   But in the front towards Mordor where the first bitter assault   would come there stood the sons of Elrond on the left with   the Dunedain about them, and on the right the Prince Imrahil   with the men of Dol Amroth tall and fair, and picked men of   the Tower of Guard. 

So, basically, you have this situation.

                     Mordor
           Dunedain    Men of Dol Amroth          ooo                        ooo         oo oo                      oo oo        oo   oo                    oo   oo         oo oo                      oo oo          ooo                        ooo       Aragorn                     Eomer       Gandalf 

Pippin stood in that front rank with Beregond, so there was clearly no shield-wall as the Anglo-Saxons would have made at Hastings. And we can look at the description of how the battle began as well:

   Then even as he thought these things the first assault crashed   into them.  The orcs hindered by the mires that lay before the   hills halted and poured their arrows into the defending ranks.   But through them there came striding up, roaring like beasts,   a great company of hill-trolls out of Gorgoroth.  Taller and   broader than Men they were, and they were clad only in close-   fitting mesh of horny scales, or maybe that was their hideous   hide; but they bore round bucklers huge and black and wielded   heavy hammers in their knotted hands.  Reckless they sprang   into the pools and waded across, bellowing as they came.  Like   a storm they broke upon the line of the men of Gondor, and   beat upon helm and head, and arm and shield, as smiths hewing   the hot bending iron.  At Pippin's side Beregond was stunned   and overborne, and he fell; and the great troll-chief that   smote him down bent over him, reaching out a clutching claw;   for these fell creatures would bite the throats of those that   they threw down. 

The situation at Hastings was completely different. William's army advanced against an English force drawn up along a ridge estimated to be 1000 yards long. Let's look at the description of the battle from historyserver.org:

   Using his Housecarls, Harold formed a shield-wall from one end   of Senlac Ridge to the other. The front rank was composed of   groups of Housecarls and thegns (nobles) who were placed   between the inexperienced and ill-armed fyrdmen. All troops in   this first rank held a large kite-shaped shield, and formed the   shield-wall. There were six or seven ranks of troops of varying   ability behind the first. (The two ranks of English shown above   on the map represent these seven or eight ranks.) The   Housecarls and thegns were predominantly armed with heavy,   two-handed axes and were well armored, just like their Norman   counterparts. The fyrdmen, on the other hand, were armed with   home-made swords, maces, spears, javelins, daggers, and   probably farm tools and clubs. Their armor usually consisted of   straw stuffed under their shirts. The worst armed fyrdmen would   be in the last ranks of Harold's defense. Both flanks of Senlac   Ridge fell off steeply and were cut by deep ravines. Beyond   this, numerous deep streams and marshy ground made it   impossible for infantry and cavalry to maneuver. Harold,   therefore, did not have to worry about an attack on his flanks;    all attacks must come from the front. The top of Senlac Ridge   was approximately 100 feet above the bottom of Senlac Meadow,   where William's army was formed. The distance between Harold's   shield-wall and William's archers was about 300 feet.   Therefore, the slope that William's army had to climb to reach   the English was comparatively gentle. 

So far, we have kite-shields in the front ranks of the Anglo-Saxons -- there is no mention of kite-shields among the Dunedain of the North, indeed no mention of shields at all. They were "armed with spear and bow and sword", so their weaponry was nothing like that of the Housecarls and thegns.

Furthermore, the Rohirrim had only round shields, unsuitable for the kind of "shield-wall" the Anglo-Saxons made. Tolkien does mention a shield-wall in "The Battles of the Fords of Isen", but he doesn't mention kite-shields or the kinds of weapons Harald's army used, so the battle techniques employed were different.

Then there is the fact that Harold's army was guarded on its flannks by rough territory. He didn't have to worry about anything other than a frontal assault, whereas Aragorn's two hills and front line were encompassed by battle all around.

: MARTINEZ ALSO WRITES: : : And I don't see any need to equate the Rangers with : : "housecarls". Tolkien's Rangers are not personal troops.

: There is in fact, quite a bit of similarity between Aragorn's : elite--primarily the Dunedain for the sake of this : argument--and Harold's house carls.

[snip differences in relationships between the leaders and their soldiers]

Not according to the descriptions given by Tolkien (the Rangers were "armed with spear and bow and sword") and historyserver.org ("The Housecarls and thegns were predominantly armed with heavy, two-handed axes and were well armored,..."). Two-handed axes cannot be used like spears, bows, and swords.

: As has been noted, Harold lost, and Aragorn won. However, as : we all know, Aragorn had no chance of winning the battle on : military terms alone. It was the destruction of the Ring that : allowed the Men of the West to achieve victory. Had the battle : raged on Aragorn's defenses would have surely crumbled after : time, as Harold's did. His ring of shields, swords and spears : would have given in, and Aragorn eventually would have lost his : life, hacked by orcs and trolls even as Harold was butchered, : possibly unceremoniously hewn by Ivo of Ponthieu. There is #4.

No, this is also incorrect. Harold's military victory was not assured, but he had a chance for victory. Aragorn never had such a chance.

In fact, the battles unfolded quite differently. William's cavalry led their horses across several miles of rough terrain, then donned their armor, mounted their horses, and charged. Sauron is not said to have used any cavalry against Aragorn's position. Then there are the archers. William's archers, used to resupplying themselves with whatever fell from enemy archers, almost ran out of arrows. "Therefore, William's 100% superiority in archers almost caused him to lose the battle. Had he not directed them to shoot plummeting fire late in the battle, it is very likely that they would have exhausted their arrows and become useless and a severe liability to him."

That's a pretty significant statement. There was never a chance of Sauron losing the battle, whether for lack of cavalry or lack of arrows for the archers.

: I would like to add that the two battles are in no way : identical, nor do I even think Tolkien was thinking of Hastings : as he imagined the battle before the Black Gate (though it is : possible I suppose). And there are elements that are not : similar. Tolkien basically had infantry vs. infantry (although : the Trolls could be seen as similar to the heavier Norman : cavalry and we can surmise that there might have been more : Southron cavalry in Sauron's army) and Hastings was a mixed : group of cavalry/infantry/archers vs. infantry. And of course : the numbers, and thus the battle, were more equally matched at : Hastings than at the Gate.

The comparison between the two battles is no more accurate than the comparison between any other two randomly selected battles. Hills and high ground have always been sought by armies throughout history. I took exception to the comparison with Hastings because it seemed to me that Forkbeard was perceiving some close correlation, and there clearly is none. Even you have conceded as much.

: But to say that the two bear NO resemblance is to ignore the : facts of both battles.

They bear the same resemblance that any other two battles around hills bear to each other: one army had the high ground, one army did not. There is no significant resemblance between the two.