The White Council

Re: Rangers of the North (again!!)

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: [snip]

: : : It seems that you are saying two different things here. On the one hand there is a personal relationship, on the other they are mercenaries? This seems rather contradictory to me. With Beren I would like to see evidence of "foreigners" being "employed" as huscarls or king's thegns in Anglo-Saxon England or in 11th century Scandinavia, I know of none and would love to know that it exists. As for the "payment" you describe, how is this any different than any Germanic chieftain or lord being the "ring-giver" who distributes the spoils of war, including land? What made the land given to these different than land given before? And what transformed the gold given from war booty to salary? And who among either Cnut's housecarls or Harold's were French or Italian and not Scandanavian or Anglo-Saxon lords and thegns? I must confess my ignorance and hope that I haven't misunderstood you, this would be quite enlightening if true.

: : Well there isn't much of a contradiction if you consider the matter. I would say that the personal side of the relationship was not unlike the connection between Napoleon and the Old Guard. The guardsmen were jealous of the banter they could enjoy with their emperor, and he is recorded as being very informal with them on occasion - they were not known as Grognards (grumblers) for nothing. Also the Byzantine emperors had close relationships with their Varangian guardsmen on whom their personal safety lay. Indeed some ex-huscarles entered the Varangian Guard after Hastings - they probably would not have considered their basic employment as having changed. Both the Varangians and Napoleon's Guard were paid professional soldiers, not close kin of their leader or part of his household as such. : : The personal relationship in most cases would begin when the Huscarle was appointed and sworn in, it was not a pre-requisite for entry. One has to remember that in Anglo-Saxon society the "Oath-breaker" was just about the lowest form of life, so once sworn into service a soldier could, in theory at least, be thought of as reliably loyal.

: Yes, but you must ackowledge that the Varangian Guard and the Old Guard were full-time, paid soldiers. The huscarles were not. They were the "flower of Anglo-Saxon males" as Poitiers laments after they are dead. Most of the huscarles were land-owning Saxons. Many were thegns and other members of the Saxon aristocracy. They did not stay with Harold at all times, nor were they always employed in a military capacity as the "Guards" were. And as for many Saxons joining the Varangian Guard after the Norman Conquest (a fact which is certainly true), they did look upon this as a change. Some sources lament that the greatest Saxon warriors and leaders were forced to mercenary themselves in faraway lands. A distinction was made between serving lord and country and hiring out to foreign kings. The reason they left is because their lands were taken by William and given to Normans.

In Denmark at least, there was a time-honoured tradition of lords having a following (hird) of full-time troops serving as a guard. Knud had his famous Huskarls, I seem to remember that we even have a written codex for them, and, as we all know, Knud was more a King of England than anywhere else, so I would guess that even had it not existed before, professional Huskarls would have been established after his time.

: : As for foreigners in the Huscarles, there were certainly some Scandinavians, who at the time of Hastings I would class as foreigners ie. not Anglo-Saxon or Anglo-Danes from the Danelaw. King Harold's brothers and probably other Ealdormen (or Earls/Jarls) kept their own small companies of Huscarles. Harold's rebel brother (who's name escapes me for the moment) one time Earl of Northumbria, was married to a daughter of the Count of Flanders had a number of Flemmings in his Huscarles.

: Tostig, brother of Harold, by having Flemish huscarles was using family members, at least by marriage. The urstwhile Earl of Northumbria was a notable dealer with foreigners and not a great example of a good Saxon. It was Tostig, in fact, who encouraged Harald Hardrada, King of Norway, to attack England. He was subsequently defeated and slain at Stamford Bridge, as was Tostig. And as for Scandinavians, they were not entirely foriegn either. You make a distinction between the Anglo-Danish of the Danelaw and the Danes, not one that would have been made in the 11th century. I would not count the Danes as too foreign in certain parts of England at the time.

Me neither, since at this time, English culture was permeating Denmark (coins, towns, churches etc- we have a number of towns founded in the 11th century that are very "English" in their outlook).

: :The Norman Earl Ralph (pre-conquest appointed by the half Norman king Edward the Confessor) based in Hereford, undoubtedly had fellow countrymen in his military force. Though I would say that the vast majority of Huscarles would have been drawn from Anglo-Saxon and Anglo-Danish sources.

: Edward the Confessor, in fact, surrounded himself with a large number of Normans, one of the grumbles against him that was "going round" during his rule. It can be said with some veracity that Edward himself is in many ways responsible for the Norman Conquest. But Edward was, as you mention, half Norman. Thus his association with Normans, as soldiers, huscarles whatever, should not be surprising or out of the ordinary.

: Well, that is all I have time for, even though I am greatly enjoying this thread. . .

I would believe that the tradition of a Hird of professional soldiers was very much a Scandinavian and Anglo-Saxon one, the Normans seem (to me) to have used a different system. An interesting source for this is Saxo's story of Rolf Krake and his hird, we know that Olav the Fat had the Bjarkemaal (most important part of the story and a sort of Codex for the Hird (I love it)) cited to his own following before Stiklestad, this means that it was generally known in the Viking Age and that the thought of a professional Hird was not foreign to the magnates of that time. NT