The White Council

Re: Battles in ME

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : I would imagine that Minas Tirith would have a garrison and : : : standing army of 20,000 and it seems reasonable to me that : : : they would have scouting groups and patroling regiments in : : : the area and the men from Dol-Amroth. Calling patrols back : : : and counting Amroth's men it would probably give them close : : : to 25,000...and then add in rohans riders lets say 31,000. I : : : dont know if this number seems large but it is larger than : : : Michaels estimate. My reasoning for making it larger is : : : because they still had enough troops to march to the gate of : : : mordor. I would imagine that the horde of orcs outnumbered : : : the horde of haradrim giving Sauron maybe 100,000 or more. : : : Whatchya think?

: : By the time they marched to Morannon, many reinforcements had : : arrived from the southern fiefs. In fact, when they laft : : someone (I forgot who) said that they were leaving Minas Tirith : : stronger than when the Withch King attacked.

: : IIRC, around 6-7000 left with the Aragorn et al to fight Sauron : : - and some were left at the Morgul Vale and other sent up to : : take Cair Andros to prevent Sauron's forces in Anorien from : : attacking form their rear. : : : : I would assume at least as least as many as attacked Sauron : : remained behind, both to garrison Minas Tirith and to mop up : : Sauron's armies in Anorien.

: You guys misunderstood me. My estimate of 15-20,000 men only concerned the numbers involved in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields.

: I think Martin and I came close to agreeing that Denethor had maybe 10-11,000 men in Minas Tirith, which were reinforced by almost 3,000 men from the rest of Gondor. Due to losses suffered in the battles leading up to the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, Minas Tirith could not field 14,000 men when the 6,000 Rohirrim struck. Maybe they were down to 8-10,000 men. Aragorn's force numbered in the thousands, but I doubt he could have brought more than 5,000 men in time to fight the battle. Angbor led another 4,000 on foot which reached the city about two days after the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, so I wasn't counting his forces.

: Tolkien suggests the Haradrim in the Lord of the Nazgul's army outnumbered the Rohirrim 3-to-1 (but these were apparently not all mounted). When Faramir retreated from the Causeway Forts Tolkien says his foes outnumbered his men 10-to-1 (but these did not include the reserves that Gothmog threw into the Battle of the Pelennor Fields).

: Karen Fonstad estimates there were 45,000 or more soldiers under the Lord of the Nazgul's command, but most of her numbers are simply made up (she assigns 1200 men to Imrahil, for example, even though that would mean the "company of knights" numbered 500).

: I think 30-35,000 are more what Tolkien had in mind. That would be sufficient to overwhelm Denethor's force. The blocking force in Anorien outnumbered the Rohirrim, so they may have numbered 10,000.

I have always estimated twice that. You forget the common military doctrine that says "Three to one when attacking and five to one when attacking a fortress", Sauron and his generals would have known this. Further, we often see how the soldiers of the west defeat overwhelming numbers of enemies. I have always likened this to the Roman legions who, by their training, equipment, superior logistics and leadership, could defat almost any foe, even those outnumbering them (that is, when they did not venture into Parthia, it seems to me that whoever ventured into the other's theather/home ground got a good and sound defeat as reward for the effort). Anyway, I would put my money on a Dúnedain or Rohir soldier against almost all of the his enemies. NT