The White Council

Re: Battles in ME

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : I think Martin and I came close to agreeing that Denethor had : : maybe 10-11,000 men in Minas Tirith, which were reinforced by : : almost 3,000 men from the rest of Gondor. Due to losses : : suffered in the battles leading up to the Battle of the : : Pelennor Fields, Minas Tirith could not field 14,000 men when : : the 6,000 Rohirrim struck. Maybe they were down to 8-10,000 : : men. Aragorn's force numbered in the thousands, but I doubt : : he could have brought more than 5,000 men in time to fight : : the battle. Angbor led another 4,000 on foot which reached : : the city about two days after the Battle of the Pelennor : : Fields, so I wasn't counting his forces.

: : Tolkien suggests the Haradrim in the Lord of the Nazgul's : : army outnumbered the Rohirrim 3-to-1 (but these were : : apparently not all mounted). When Faramir retreated from the : : Causeway Forts Tolkien says his foes outnumbered his men : : 10-to-1 (but these did not include the reserves that Gothmog : : threw into the Battle of the Pelennor Fields).

: : Karen Fonstad estimates there were 45,000 or more soldiers : : under the Lord of the Nazgul's command, but most of her : : numbers are simply made up (she assigns 1200 men to Imrahil, : : for example, even though that would mean the "company of : : knights" numbered 500).

: : I think 30-35,000 are more what Tolkien had in mind. That : : would be sufficient to overwhelm Denethor's force. The : : blocking force in Anorien outnumbered the Rohirrim, so they : : may have numbered 10,000.

: I have always estimated twice that. You forget the common : military doctrine that says "Three to one when attacking and : five to one when attacking a fortress", Sauron and his generals : would have known this. Further, we often see how the soldiers : of the west defeat overwhelming numbers of enemies. I have : always likened this to the Roman legions who, by their : training, equipment, superior logistics and leadership, could : defat almost any foe, even those outnumbering them (that is, : when they did not venture into Parthia, it seems to me that : whoever ventured into the other's theather/home ground got a : good and sound defeat as reward for the effort). Anyway, I : would put my money on a Dúnedain or Rohir soldier against : almost all of the his enemies.

I didn't forget the old military adages, but adages don't always govern what happens in fiction. Sauron was counting on the Nazgul demoralizing the defenders in Minas Tirith, and they did a pretty good job of that.

Elfhelm was able to disperse the blocking force with only 3,000 men. He came in from BEHIND, so that gave him an advantage, but he still would have had a serious problem taking on much more than 10,000 men and Orcs.

And though the Romans were good, they weren't indefeatable. They lost many armies against the barbarians (5 or 6, I think, before Marius stopped the Cimbri and Teutoni, Varus' three legions in the Teutoberger Wald, the disaster at Adrianople, etc.) and Hannibal walked all over Italy for years with relative impunity.

The armies of northwestern Middle-earth don't usually overcome superior numbers. The Rohirrim were outnumbered and defeated by Saruman's forces. The Ents showed up with maybe 10,000 Huorns (who knows -- maybe there were half a million of them) and turned the tide. Aragorn used the Dead to clear the Corsairs and Haradrim out of Lebennin and Lamedon -- these were highly unusual tactics. Any army that is thrown into a panic, no matter how large or well-trained it may be, is going to lose a battle unless it can be quickly rallied (and this has only rarely happened in history that I can recall).

So, when Aragorn and the Rohirrim showed up at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, it wasn't just a matter of reinforcements showing up and blowing Sauron's 5-to-1 or whatever advantage away. The cloud rolled back, the ships people thought were carrying more of Sauron's troops turned out to be in Gondorian hands, and the Lord of the Nazgul was slain (brutally murdered, whatever). And being attacked on both flanks didn't help the morale of Sauron's forces, either.

Just consider the psychological aspects of what happened. The Lord of the Nazgul breached the gate. Everything was going his way. Then Gandalf appeared in the breach and things started falling to pieces. First the Rohirrim attacked the army from the rear, and they attacked at three points. Sometime later (maybe an hour? a half hour?) the Lord of the Nazgul fell. Then the cloud rolled back. THEN the Corsair fleet showed up and displayed the banner of the kings of Gondor. So Gondor and Rohan will flooding the fields with troops from the north, from the south, and from the city.

That it still took the remainder of the day to decide the issue shows Gothmog was a pretty capable commander, but also that the outnumbered forces of the West weren't just running around butchering helpless enemies. The Rohirrim lost a lot of men and horses. Tolkien doesn't dwell on the matter, but I suspect a lot of Eoreds were hastily reorganized in the two days after the battle, because their organization as an army was probably severely disrupted.