The White Council

Re: Battles in ME

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : I would imagine that Minas Tirith would have a garrison and : : : standing army of 20,000 and it seems reasonable to me that : : : they would have scouting groups and patroling regiments in : : : the area and the men from Dol-Amroth. Calling patrols back : : : and counting Amroth's men it would probably give them close : : : to 25,000...and then add in rohans riders lets say 31,000. I : : : dont know if this number seems large but it is larger than : : : Michaels estimate. My reasoning for making it larger is : : : because they still had enough troops to march to the gate of : : : mordor. I would imagine that the horde of orcs outnumbered : : : the horde of haradrim giving Sauron maybe 100,000 or more. : : : Whatchya think?

In my opinion that is much to large a number as a garrison and standing army for Minas Tirith (Gondor? that might be more reasonable but just Minas Tirith? No.) I personally think that Minas Tirith had a standing (read professional) garrison of at the most 3000 and probobly less. If the garrison was as large as you suggest they should have been able to mount a more effective initial defence of the Rammas Echor.

: : By the time they marched to Morannon, many reinforcements had : : arrived from the southern fiefs. In fact, when they laft : : someone (I forgot who) said that they were leaving Minas Tirith : : stronger than when the Withch King attacked.

: : IIRC, around 6-7000 left with the Aragorn et al to fight Sauron : : - and some were left at the Morgul Vale and other sent up to : : take Cair Andros to prevent Sauron's forces in Anorien from : : attacking form their rear. : : : : I would assume at least as least as many as attacked Sauron : : remained behind, both to garrison Minas Tirith and to mop up : : Sauron's armies in Anorien.

: You guys misunderstood me. My estimate of 15-20,000 men only concerned the numbers involved in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields.

: I think Martin and I came close to agreeing that Denethor had maybe 10-11,000 men in Minas Tirith, which were reinforced by almost 3,000 men from the rest of Gondor. Due to losses suffered in the battles leading up to the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, Minas Tirith could not field 14,000 men when the 6,000 Rohirrim struck. Maybe they were down to 8-10,000 men. Aragorn's force numbered in the thousands, but I doubt he could have brought more than 5,000 men in time to fight the battle. Angbor led another 4,000 on foot which reached the city about two days after the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, so I wasn't counting his forces.

I think these numbers are more reasonable. I think that including the less than 3000 reinforcements with another maybe 6000-7000 as a garrison for Minas Tirith, its outcompanies and any militia/levy that stayed behind during the evacuation of the City. After all the City of Minas Tirith 'lacked half the men that could have dwelt there at ease' and many fled before the battle. I personal;y think that before the arrival of the Rohirrim the city had no more than 10000 thousand defenders.

: Tolkien suggests the Haradrim in the Lord of the Nazgul's army outnumbered the Rohirrim 3-to-1 (but these were apparently not all mounted). When Faramir retreated from the Causeway Forts Tolkien says his foes outnumbered his men 10-to-1 (but these did not include the reserves that Gothmog threw into the Battle of the Pelennor Fields).

: Karen Fonstad estimates there were 45,000 or more soldiers under the Lord of the Nazgul's command, but most of her numbers are simply made up (she assigns 1200 men to Imrahil, for example, even though that would mean the "company of knights" numbered 500).

: I think 30-35,000 are more what Tolkien had in mind. That would be sufficient to overwhelm Denethor's force. The blocking force in Anorien outnumbered the Rohirrim, so they may have numbered 10,000.

The numbers given for the reinforcements to Minas Tirith before the Battle started are "less than three thousands". @ 2100 of these can be accounted for in specific numbers given by JRRT. For the sake of argument lets say that leaves no more than 800 troops to account for (less than 3000 ie @ 2900). So this leaves us to estimate the numbers of the 'long line of scantily equipped men' from Anfalas, a 'few hillmen' from Lamedon, and the 'company of knights' from Dol Amroth from these @ 800 remaining soldiers. I highly doubt that 'few hillmen' could # any more than 100 (and probobly should be less). Now at the end of 'The Last Debate' JRRT refers to 'another company of five hundred horse' which consists of Aragorn's Rangers, Elladan and Elrohir and the knights of Dol Amroth. The 'another' refers back to 500 horsed Rohirrim (thus two mounted companies referred to as having 500 members). So 500 may not be an unjustifiable guess at the number of men in the company of knights from Dol Amroth. This would leave us with @200 to form the long line of scantily equipped men from Anfalas. Thus coming up with 2900 reinforcements (less than three thousands). I do think that your numbers are reasonable for the forces of the Enemy. Certainly they should be no more than 50000 (including the covering force in Anorien).