The White Council

Re: Battles in ME

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : Pelennor Fields: 18000 haradrim, as many various easterlings, orcs at least as many as men, = 72000. I think of these numbers at the point where it is said "the Rohirrim were thrice outnumbered by the Haradrim alone, so you have to add the ones they'd swept off the northern half of the plain, maybe 10000. that makes it 82000, and I'll round it up to 100000 for a nice round figure.

: In my opinion much too large. I think it that logisticaly speaking it would be very difficult to have that many combatants (and whatever support troops they needed) in the Pellenor Fields. : If there were so many of the Enemy there they would have quickly overrun the City.

: : Helm's Deep: The 10000 Pippin counted coming from Isengard, plus whatever forces Saruman already had near the Fords, I'd say 13-14 thousands all told. 1500-2000 defenders.

: : Five Armies: 500 (+13) dwarves, perhaps 1500 Laketowners, 2000-2500 elves =4500. Most of the orcs of the MIsty and Grey Mountains, at least 35000. A couple of thousand Wargs/wolves/both.

: I think too large here as well. JRRT says 500 Dwarves from the Iron Hills. The Elves: Thranduil leaves Mirkwood with 'many spearmen and bowmen. 'Many' of the skilled Elves stay behind to assist in the rebuilding of Esgaroth. But 'most' of Thranduil's host marches on to Erebor. JRRT mentions 1000 spearmen who initially charge under cover of archers and when they charge again it is with 'renewed numbers' which could indicate some reserve spearmen (unless it is the archers joining the charge). So we have 1000 spearmen plus a reserve and archers. reading the account I doubt that the reserve was much more than 200 or so (note 'renewed' numbers not redoubled ie replacing dead and wounded), also the archers I figure to be about 200-300. In my estimate the total of the Elven host is @ 1500 warriors. Lakemen: I dont think Esgaroth could have supplied that many soldiers. Note that 'all the men of arms who were still able' marched with Thranduil. Thranduil and his host secures the sothern spur. While the Men and Dwarves are combined and some Elves join them to secure the Eastern spur. This seems an attempt to get parity in numbers between the two wings of the army. I believe that the Men numbered well under a thousand and probobly not much more than the Dwarves. I think the total numbers involved are under 2500 for Elves, Dwarves and Men. On the side of the Orcs and Wargs I feel that 10000-12000 is a much more likely number.

I agree that my figures for the elves and men are larger than the picture one gets from the Hobbit, but I felt they needed some boosting to make victory credible. The Grey Mountains were "absolutely stiff with goblins" before the battle, and those together with the Misty Mountain orcs would have made a force too big for just a couple of thousand to defeat, eagles or no. Also, the visual image that is given of the orc host is such that it makes one think of at least a football stadium-size crowd, more than 12000.