The White Council

Re: Battles in ME

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : : : Five Armies: 500 (+13) dwarves, perhaps 1500 Laketowners, 2000-2500 elves =4500. Most of the orcs of the MIsty and Grey Mountains, at least 35000. A couple of thousand Wargs/wolves/both.

: : : I think too large here as well. JRRT says 500 Dwarves from the Iron Hills. The Elves: Thranduil leaves Mirkwood with 'many spearmen and bowmen. 'Many' of the skilled Elves stay behind to assist in the rebuilding of Esgaroth. But 'most' of Thranduil's host marches on to Erebor. JRRT mentions 1000 spearmen who initially charge under cover of archers and when they charge again it is with 'renewed numbers' which could indicate some reserve spearmen (unless it is the archers joining the charge). So we have 1000 spearmen plus a reserve and archers. Reading the account I doubt that the reserve was much more than 200 or so (note 'renewed' numbers not redoubled ie replacing dead and wounded), also the archers I figure to be about 200-300. In my estimate the total of the Elven host is @ 1500 warriors. Lakemen: I don't think Esgaroth could have supplied that many soldiers. Note that 'all the men of arms who were still able' marched with Thranduil. Thranduil and his host secure the southern spur. The Men and Dwarves are combined and some Elves join them to secure the Eastern spur. This seems an attempt to get parity in numbers between the two wings of the army. I believe that the Men numbered well under a thousand and probably not much more than the Dwarves. I think the total numbers involved are under 2500 for Elves, Dwarves and Men. On the side of the Orcs and Wargs I feel that 10000-12000 is a much more likely number.

: : I agree that my figures for the elves and men are larger than the picture one gets from the Hobbit, but I felt they needed some boosting to make victory credible. The Grey Mountains were "absolutely stiff with goblins" before the battle, and those together with the Misty Mountain orcs would have made a force too big for just a couple of thousand to defeat, eagles or no. Also, the visual image that is given of the orc host is such that it makes one think of at least a football stadium-size crowd, more than 12000.

: During the initial phases of the battle the Orcs are taken by surprise and attacked in the rear on a couple of occasions. This coud go a great way towards contributing to a 'credible victory'. But even with this the forces of the Elves, Dwarves and Men, even with the Eagles, was too small to defeat the Orcs and Wargs. It took Beorn entering the battle defeat the force arrayed against them.

How I like to imagine the Battle of Five Armies (if I'm forced to use numbers and do some thinking beyond the pure image that is created in my mind as I read it):

A huge motley crew of orcs (and wolves) of different size and weaponry and with no concept whatsoever of tactics (The bodyguard of Bolg are the only coheirent unit with good arms and discipline) pours in between the arms of the mountain. 500+ elves "who can hit a bird's eye in the dark" empty their quivers at the mass, littering the valley with around 3000 corpses. Then the 2500 defenders charge from the slopes from both flanks of a bewildered enemy, and I can easily imagine each of them scytheing down five enemies; slash,slash,stab,slash,slash. Then follows a period of more even struggle between the good guys and the wavering goblins, and each slays at least one more of the orc-rabble, while some of the men, elves and dwarves are now also getting killed. During this period the orcs scale the mountain spur and start attacking from behind. The orcs' morale is uplifted and their deathrate decreases somewhat. Then the barricade at the gate crashes down and Thorin &co. with others rallying behind them drive a wedge into the dark host. Once more there is great slaughter among the orcs, several thousand being wasted before Thorin (who himself hews at least 50 orc-necks at this time) is brought to a stop by the bodyguard of bolg. Now the orc-slaughter has been brought to a halt and both sides lose men at about the same rate(the outflanked good guys being too valiant, in comparison with this lot of orcs, to be killed without bringing down at least one enemy on average). Then the hundreds of eagles arrive, clearing the mountain-spur of the at least 2000 orcs who are in the process of scaling it. The eagles then begin making swoops at the main host, though they are much less efficient at this. Though enhearted and with their enemies' élan dissipated, the United Good is still unable to slay orcs, who still outnumber them at least five to one, at a sufficient rate to reduce their numbers fast enough relative to their own mounting losses. Beorn then makes his appearance, sweeping the enemy from his way and rending the heart out of the orc-host. The orcs are thrown in terror and confusion, and flee in a final massacre. Let's see, 3000(arrows)+ 5*2500 + 2500 + about another 3000(Thorin-initiated charge) + a few hundred +2000(eagle-kills)+about 1000 + 5*(around)2000 = 34000 ,which approaches a satisfying number for the orcs of the Grey & Misty mountains.

This battle is unique in comparison with other Middle-Earth battles (because it is described in the style of the Hobbit) so I'm allowing myself more liberties in treating it than I would with any other battle. But perhaps my view will change the next time I read the Hobbit and pay attention to this.

-Foradan