The White Council

Re: Tolkien and Howard

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : : Delving in the archives I came across the statement that Tolkien knew and even appreciated Robert E. Howard's Conan stories. I must admit that my knowledge of : : Conan is limited to some comic books and the Schwarzenegger films (personally I am a fan of the Solomon Kane cycle). The statement struck me because I never considered Tolkien to be in the same category as Howard (no offense). This in turn led me to the conclusion that perhaps my definition of Tolkien is wrong.

: : Is the Silm/Hobbit/LotR indeed heroic fantasy? IMHO, I always saw it as an epic comparable to the Iliad, Beowulf, the Nibelungenlied or the Chansons de Geste (and even to El Cid and Orlando furioso). Am I wrong?

: : Any input would be greatly appreciated : : Cheers : : Berembrôg

: This is actually a much debated topic, the series of multiple books, and not a few thesis articles for doctorates or masters degrees. When I originally read LOTR I was about 12 years old, and although I knew there was a depth there, I had no idea how deep one could interpret it. About two years ago I heard a story (possibly an urban legend) about a man who was doing some intense work regarding Tolkien and his body of work for just such a thesis. As he was working late on night, a maintenance man came in. There happened to be a bust of Tolkien in this particular room, and the maintenance man, who had glanced at the other man's work, walked over to the bust, through his arm around it in a friendly fashion and addressed the bust saying, "You told a good story old man."

: As the story goes on, the young man who was working on his thesis in such depth was so struck by the moment, that he immediately changed the scope of his work and instead addressed Tolkien and his works not as allegorical but as an important story that had an amazing influence on following authors.

: My initial understanding of Tolkien (at age 12) was that he was a heroic fantasy author, perhaps the best, but no more or less. Certainly, there are implications that his work offers in the vein of socio-political commentary. But I offer that almost (and kindly note the "almost") any work, no mater how mundane or banal can be used to support similar claims, even Robert E Howard's (a self-defined pulp author) Conan can be considered socio-political. Conan is a barbarian, certainly not considered by anyone to be of any worth or means, and in the end he is rular of his own kingdom. He is always master of his own destiny and able to conquer the unconquerable through strength, perseverance and heart. This can be likened very much to people, who use their gifts (and their definate lack of noble lineage) to make their fortunes. Definately a prevelant value of Americans through history (regardless of the good or ill that those Americans have done to achieve that fortune).

: -Robroy To Beremborg-- if you haven't read any of the old Conan stories I highly suggest you do. The tone and language of them is absolutely fantastic (yes I'm biased being huge Conan fan). The first Conan movie (an early Oliver Stone project)does a good job of capturing the "feel" of the Hyborian Age (as Conan's world is known) even though it doesn't follow REH's outlines for his life. As for Howard vs Tolkien as literature REH himself was a little surprised at Conan's popularity but he was proud of his pulp-fiction status and I dont think he had any delusions of literary grandeur. I personally consider The Lord of the Rings to qualify as true epic literature that can stand up easily to Homer. Of course that's just my opinion.