The White Council

one more time

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: I don't give out page numbers due to inconsistencies between the various editions.

There are various solutions to that, such as stating your edition, or saying "about the 14th page in the chapter," something like that. You can do as you like, but if you want to help me find the passage you're pointing me toward, something more than referencing a chapter would help. Even saying "at the very end," as you say here, would save time. Not trying to be a pain. I'm just interested in the question, and would like to be able to follow up the references you give.

: The stones would not manufacture images, but it would still be possible for Aragorn to show Sauron something other than the current truth. The section to look at in the Palantiri essay is the very end, starting with the paragraph that begins with "A viewer could by his will cause the vision of the Stone to concentrate on some point..."

The passage reads (the last two pages of the chapter):

"A viewer could by his will cause the vision of the Stone to concentrate on some point, on or near its direct line...But controlled by the will of a skilled and strong surveyor, remoter things could be enlarged, brought as it were nearer and clearer, while their background was almost suppressed. Thus a man at a considerable distance might be seen as a tiny figure...but concentration could enlarge and clarify the vision till he was seen...and recognized if he was known to the surveyor."

As I read this passage, it notes how currently true details could be enlarged, or focused on apart from their background. There is no mention of showing something not currently true.

: In the next paragraph, Tolkien illustrates his point by suggesting Denethor could have seen Gandalf leaving Theoden's army in Rohan.

Yes. Something that is currently true.

: Aragorn clearly stated he revealed himself in some guise other than that in which he was then travelling.

I already gave you an alternative explanation for this. Aragorn has two distinct guises throughout the trilogy. The first is that of a weather-beaten ranger. The second is that of the rightful heir of Elendil and Isildur. That the guise Aragorn showed Sauron in the palantir was this second one (not the Strider to which Gimli and Legolas were used) is backed up considerably by the rest of the passage. If you think my alternative explanation is wrong, that's fine. But I don't see why you should just ignore it.

:He was being deceptive. And Aragorn's purpose was to give Sauron the impression that he, Aragorn, had the Ring and no one else. Sauron was led to look for the wrong guy.

This, I think, is likely true. It's not quite the explanation Aragorn gives of his own purposes to Gimli and Legolas -- he meant to make Sauron worried, and to strike too fast, which he does. I'm sure, though, that at least the implication that this heir of Isildur had the ring was more than acceptable to him. And if that is all you wanted, there is other, to my mind clearer evidence. Gandalf speaks on the long march to the black gate of his hope that Sauron will mistake their attack for the pride of a new ring-lord. There, now you have an instance of deception.

And what does this prove?

I contend that it still does not show

(1) That any of the characters would openly _lie_ (this sort of deception is not the same as stating a blatant un-truth)

(2) That Gandalf would ever lie to friends (please offer one instance in which he does), or

(3) That he would tell the lords ready to march on Mordor that destroying the ring would destroy Sauron if he didn't actually believe it to be true.

Does anybody really believe that that would be consistent with Gandalf's character? I don't see it.