The White Council

beg to differ

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: First, when the Ring was cut from Sauron's finger he fell, heavily and mightily.

: Gandalf knew this.

From "The Council of Elrond," (FR p. 256, about five pages in):

(Elrond): "I beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gil-galad died, and Elendil fell, and Narsil broke beneath him; but Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand with the hilt-shard of his father's sword, and took it for his own."

The way I read this, Sauron was overthrown before the ring was taken from him.

And even if you were right, presumably Sauron could have found out about all this too.

: Gandalf also knew that Sauron had placed the greater body of his amassed power into the Ring. It is a simple leap (more of a skip really) to put the destruction of the Ring and the destruction (for all intents and purposes) of Sauron together.

Yes. So simple that Sauron should not have missed it -- at least as an extreme likelihood.

The burden of proof, as far as I can tell, is not on me to prove that Sauron would have assumed that the ring still existed. All I have to establish is that it does not make sense for him to assume that it was destroyed. By stating how obvious Gandalf's inference is in this instance, it seems to me that you are making my case for me -- how could Sauron not have felt the same way, at least enough so to think that the ring _might_ still exist?

: Secondly, Sauron had no idea that Isuldur had not destroyed the Ring.

Nor that he did. As far as we know, he has no proof either way. If he did, however, get a first-hand report of any kind (say, from one of the Nazgul), it would have let him know that the ring still existed. Think about it for a second: Could the One ring have been destroyed without the Nazgul knowing it? I can't see how.

:Again, as above, he most likely felt that his impressive fall had been caused by the Ring's destruction itself.

No. That is not the only conclusion the evidence supports. He had "fallen" at least once before, and the ring was not destroyed then. And here he was given a death-blow by Isildur. His body was, I take it, broken. That seems like plenty of reason for a fall. In point of fact, we know that that WAS the reason for his impressive fall. Now, if you want to say Sauron didn't have reason to be convinced one way or the other, fine. But why say that he ought to have been convinced that the ring had been destroyed? While it is convenient for explaining Gandalf's claim, this position seems to me to have nothing else going for it.

:Sauron is a very "kill or be killed" oriented guy. If he had the ability to destroy the power base of any of the Wise, why wouldn't he? Certainly, he would have counted on the Ring being destroyed.

Compare with what Gandalf says at "The Council of Elrond," (FR pp. 282-3, three to four pages before the end of the chapter):

"For he is very wise, and weighs all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice. But the only measure that he knows is desire, desire for power; and so he judges all hearts. Into his heart the thought will not enter that any will refuse it, that having the Ring we may seek to destroy it."

So on the contrary, Gandalf casts doubt here on the very idea that Sauron could conceive of someone destroying his ring.

:Certainly, Sauron, after having the Ring cut from his hand, and regaining some semblance of cognant thought, would have most likely felt that the Ring was destroyed and that it was his own superiority that had saved him. If he did not think this, then he would have begun immediately to discover where the Ring had ended up, knowing that just being parted from it had reduced him to his present form.

He would have begun immediately to TRY to discover where it went. Big difference.

:Without much effort he could have found out that Isuldur had taken the Ring as a trophy, and that Isuldur had been slain.

And exactly why do you say this? (And if he could have done it without much effort...then he should have DONE it...) As a matter of fact, at some point Sauron DID find out about Isildur's death, and had his minions searching the Gladden Fields. We have absolutely no idea what his source was, or why it took nearly 3000 to come to light. This point seems to me perfectly consistent with the idea that he simply did not know where to look for the ring.