The White Council

Re: beg to differ

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : First, when the Ring was cut from Sauron's finger he fell, heavily and mightily.

: : Gandalf knew this.

: From "The Council of Elrond," (FR p. 256, about five pages in):

: (Elrond): "I beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gil-galad died, and Elendil fell, and Narsil broke beneath him; but Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand with the hilt-shard of his father's sword, and took it for his own."

: The way I read this, Sauron was overthrown before the ring was taken from him.

I guess that's the crux of the argument. You read (into) the text that there is an inconsistancy, whereas many of us see it as being very consistant. Sauron's armies were crushed, he was defeated, but his power still remained, until the Ring was taken. At least, that's how I read it.

: And even if you were right, presumably Sauron could have found out about all this too.

I would think he was kinda busy trying to make himself whole again, and regain strength. I grant out that this wouldn't take as much time as we're asserting, but it's not like Suaron wrote up a "To Do" list after his fall. He went about his business of playing the chess game to conquer ME. That means he would bend his attention to different things at different times.

: : Gandalf also knew that Sauron had placed the greater body of his amassed power into the Ring. It is a simple leap (more of a skip really) to put the destruction of the Ring and the destruction (for all intents and purposes) of Sauron together.

: Yes. So simple that Sauron should not have missed it -- at least as an extreme likelihood.

Again, not if Sauron believed that his loss of power was from the destruction of the Ring and not simply having it removed from his hand.

: The burden of proof, as far as I can tell, is not on me to prove that Sauron would have assumed that the ring still existed. All I have to establish is that it does not make sense for him to assume that it was destroyed. : By stating how obvious Gandalf's inference is in this instance, it seems to me that you are making my case for me -- how could Sauron not have felt the same way, at least enough so to think that the ring _might_ still exist?

I would refer you to my later argument, why wouldn't he think that the Ring was destroyed. If you had the power of your enemy in your hands, why wouldn't you destroy it on the scene? Or better still, why wouldn't Sauron? I believe this would be where you have the burden of proof.

: : Secondly, Sauron had no idea that Isuldur had not destroyed the Ring.

: Nor that he did. As far as we know, he has no proof either way. If he did, however, get a first-hand report of any kind (say, from one of the Nazgul), it would have let him know that the ring still existed. : Think about it for a second: Could the One ring have been destroyed without the Nazgul knowing it? I can't see how.

Could the Nazgul have known anything when their master, who is keeping them viable, has been struck down? Not likely. This is most likely a flip argument for my own case. Why wouldn't the Nazgul have reported the lack of the Ring's destruction? They either were unable to respond on the matter, or unwilling; and it is highly unlikely that they were unwilling. Though, that might have been their plan all along . . . keep the Ring from Sauron, cause his ultimate downfall and release themselves from his power . . . or not.

: :Again, as above, he most likely felt that his impressive fall had been caused by the Ring's destruction itself.

: No. That is not the only conclusion the evidence supports. He had "fallen" at least once before, and the ring was not destroyed then. And here he was given a death-blow by Isildur. His body was, I take it, broken. That seems like plenty of reason for a fall. : In point of fact, we know that that WAS the reason for his impressive fall. Now, if you want to say Sauron didn't have reason to be convinced one way or the other, fine. But why say that he ought to have been convinced that the ring had been destroyed? While it is convenient for explaining Gandalf's claim, this position seems to me to have nothing else going for it.

Because he didn't immediately bend all his will to restoring the Ring to his finger (which ever one he liked to wear it on . . . I personally think it was a pinky-ring). Instead, if he believed the Ring gone (and thus the reason for his fall) then he would have done exactly as he did do in the text of the book.

: :Sauron is a very "kill or be killed" oriented guy. If he had the ability to destroy the power base of any of the Wise, why wouldn't he? Certainly, he would have counted on the Ring being destroyed.

: Compare with what Gandalf says at "The Council of Elrond," (FR pp. 282-3, three to four pages before the end of the chapter):

: "For he is very wise, and weighs all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice. But the only measure that he knows is desire, desire for power; and so he judges all hearts. Into his heart the thought will not enter that any will refuse it, that having the Ring we may seek to destroy it."

: So on the contrary, Gandalf casts doubt here on the very idea that Sauron could conceive of someone destroying his ring.

I would read this instead to mean "after Sauron discovered that the Ring was not destroyed." This being the case, now, why would his enemies destroy the Ring when they had not in the past, and would now be drawing on all their power to battle Sauron. To his own mind, as stated above, this made sense. But prior to his knowlege of the Ring's existance, it would have made more sense to destroy it at the moment of its capture.

Sauron (according to Gandalf) has just rethought the pattern of events as they had fallen out before, and in "weigh[ing] all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice" decides, incorrectly, that the Wise will not seek to destroy the Ring. And perhaps at this point, he HAS made the deduction that the destruction of the Ring will ruin him forever and anon. But his plans are in motion, victory seems assured, and so why change things to find the Ring when he can locate it later at his convenience?

: :Certainly, Sauron, after having the Ring cut from his hand, and regaining some semblance of cognant thought, would have most likely felt that the Ring was destroyed and that it was his own superiority that had saved him. If he did not think this, then he would have begun immediately to discover where the Ring had ended up, knowing that just being parted from it had reduced him to his present form.

: He would have begun immediately to TRY to discover where it went. Big difference.

Syntex granted. But he didn't.

: :Without much effort he could have found out that Isuldur had taken the Ring as a trophy, and that Isuldur had been slain.

: And exactly why do you say this? (And if he could have done it without much effort...then he should have DONE it...)

Well, let's see, if, as you submit, Sauron is neither convinced of the Ring's loss or destruction, then he would have sought for any news of it, no matter how small. It wouldn't be minor news that Isildur had been slain, a sorrow as great as that in the light of victory is much like the Federal's loss of Lincoln at the close of the American Civil War. From there, he could do a number of things. He could have called in the witnesses to Isildur's death, or taken prisoners and tortured the events out of people, or any number of other paths could have been taken. Thus, my assertion that Sauron could have, if he believed the Ring still extant, discovered the knowledge.

And as you say, "(And if he could have done it without much effort...then he should have DONE it...)". But he didn't which means he must have had a reason for not seeking his greatest treasure, which logically leads us to conclude that he, for whatever reason, incorrectly concluded that the Ring was destroyed.

:As a matter of fact, at some point Sauron DID find out about Isildur's death, and had his minions searching the Gladden Fields. We have absolutely no idea what his source was, or why it took nearly 3000 to come to light. This point seems to me perfectly consistent with the idea that he simply did not know where to look for the ring.

Or that he felt the Ring was destroyed. I grant that there are some facts which can go either way, but in the end Sauron did not do what he should have. He must have had a reason, or lack of reason for his erroneous assumptions which ended in his own termination. You're right that he "should" have known, but he didn't. Sauron did not believe the Ring would be his downfall, or he would have sought it sooner and harder. He did not believe the Ring existed, or he would have sought it sooner and harder. He did not believe the Wise would seek to destroy it, or he would have sought it sooner and harder.

But it's been fun! And I love to say "sooner and harder" like that!!

-RobRoy