The White Council

nice, but not enough

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : The way I read this, Sauron was overthrown before the ring was taken from him.

: I guess that's the crux of the argument. You read (into) the text that there is an inconsistancy, whereas many of us see it as being very consistant. Sauron's armies were crushed, he was defeated, but his power still remained, until the Ring was taken. At least, that's how I read it.

I do not think there is an inconsistency. But, along with the tale of the fall of Numenor, I think it is clear that Sauron's body could be destroyed and he would become a mere wandering spirit. As long as he didn't have the ring, he would not be able to reform quickly. Not having the ring could consist either in it being destroyed or in its being lost (actually, only in the latter case).

: : And even if you were right, presumably Sauron could have found out about all this too.

: I would think he was kinda busy trying to make himself whole again, and regain strength.

Sure. For about 1000 years. That leaves 2000.

:I grant out that this wouldn't take as much time as we're asserting, but it's not like Suaron wrote up a "To Do" list after his fall.

I love this response! Surely you don't think this makes any sense. Sauron just "forgot" about the One ring? Please.

:He went about his business of playing the chess game to conquer ME. That means he would bend his attention to different things at different times.

And never, NEVER, over 2000 years, to the ring? Weak answer. Too implausible.

: : : Gandalf also knew that Sauron had placed the greater body of his amassed power into the Ring. It is a simple leap (more of a skip really) to put the destruction of the Ring and the destruction (for all intents and purposes) of Sauron together.

: : Yes. So simple that Sauron should not have missed it -- at least as an extreme likelihood.

: Again, not if Sauron believed that his loss of power was from the destruction of the Ring and not simply having it removed from his hand.

No -- all this shows is that there was another alternative (this I grant). That in no way shows that the other option (namely, that the ring had been taken) was unviable.

And in matters this important it does not make sense to rule out a major option for no reason.

: : The burden of proof, as far as I can tell, is not on me to prove that Sauron would have assumed that the ring still existed. All I have to establish is that it does not make sense for him to assume that it was destroyed. : : By stating how obvious Gandalf's inference is in this instance, it seems to me that you are making my case for me -- how could Sauron not have felt the same way, at least enough so to think that the ring _might_ still exist?

: I would refer you to my later argument, why wouldn't he think that the Ring was destroyed. If you had the power of your enemy in your hands, why wouldn't you destroy it on the scene? Or better still, why wouldn't Sauron? I believe this would be where you have the burden of proof.

Fair enough. But I have given you several reasons why he would think the ring MAYBE hadn't been destroyed (again, all I need is "maybe"...you are the one who needs "definitely"): The continued existence of the ringwraiths, Sauron's own continued existence, the fact that Barad-dur wasn't destroyed (though it was made with the one ring, and its foundation will stand so long as the one ring does), the fact that we are told elsewhere that Sauron would assume that someone getting his ring would surely take it and keep it...that's more than enough. Surely this is sufficient evidence to keep Sauron from _assuming_ that his ring had been destroyed (even though he has no proof of that fact).

Should he keep the two possibilities in mind and look for some proof of both? Certainly. But that is not what we are told he does. That's the textual problem.

: : : Secondly, Sauron had no idea that Isuldur had not destroyed the Ring.

: : Nor that he did. As far as we know, he has no proof either way. If he did, however, get a first-hand report of any kind (say, from one of the Nazgul), it would have let him know that the ring still existed. : : Think about it for a second: Could the One ring have been destroyed without the Nazgul knowing it? I can't see how.

: Could the Nazgul have known anything when their master, who is keeping them viable, has been struck down? Not likely. This is most likely a flip argument for my own case. Why wouldn't the Nazgul have reported the lack of the Ring's destruction? They either were unable to respond on the matter, or unwilling; and it is highly unlikely that they were unwilling. Though, that might have been their plan all along . . . keep the Ring from Sauron, cause his ultimate downfall and release themselves from his power . . . or not.

Which assumes that Sauron didn't know the ring still existed. But that's what's in question. You're not even considering the possibility that he DID know, or at least suspected. And I assume that this is because you simply can't buy the possibility that he just didn't know where to look for it. But that possibility, I contend, is still much more plausible than the alternative you're sketching.

: : :Again, as above, he most likely felt that his impressive fall had been caused by the Ring's destruction itself.

: : No. That is not the only conclusion the evidence supports. He had "fallen" at least once before, and the ring was not destroyed then. And here he was given a death-blow by Isildur. His body was, I take it, broken. That seems like plenty of reason for a fall. : : In point of fact, we know that that WAS the reason for his impressive fall. Now, if you want to say Sauron didn't have reason to be convinced one way or the other, fine. But why say that he ought to have been convinced that the ring had been destroyed? While it is convenient for explaining Gandalf's claim, this position seems to me to have nothing else going for it.

: Because he didn't immediately bend all his will to restoring the Ring to his finger (which ever one he liked to wear it on. . . I personally think it was a pinky-ring). Instead, if he believed the Ring gone (and thus the reason for his fall) then he would have done exactly as he did do in the text of the book.

Good (and I like the pinky-ring idea). But again, we do not know what measures Sauron might have taken to re-discover his ring. You assume none. But from the position he was in, it could have made sense to be more cautious. He was weak -- he might discover it but not be able to then go retrieve it. He might, in fact, awake some new ringlord to the power of the treasure he or she had. This very real danger, which should have been very apparent to Sauron, my opponents conveniently forget. What if Galadriel had found the ring? If I were Sauron, that's what would have scared me. But if he didn't know where to look for the ring, where should he even start? Instead, he bided his time, til he became stronger.

: : "For he is very wise, and weighs all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice. But the only measure that he knows is desire, desire for power; and so he judges all hearts. Into his heart the thought will not enter that any will refuse it, that having the Ring we may seek to destroy it."

: : So on the contrary, Gandalf casts doubt here on the very idea that Sauron could conceive of someone destroying his ring.

: I would read this instead to mean "after Sauron discovered that the Ring was not destroyed."

And who is adding things in now? While this addition is convenient for your side, it has no other support. Read this passage again. It does not say what you say. It denies it, in fact. "The ONLY measure that he knows..."

: This being the case, now, why would his enemies destroy the Ring when they had not in the past, and would now be drawing on all their power to battle Sauron. To his own mind, as stated above, this made sense. But prior to his knowlege of the Ring's existance, it would have made more sense to destroy it at the moment of its capture.

No. Not to Sauron, who always thought only of dominion. And if someone (such as Isildur) had held on to the ring, he could have become a new darklord, and then Sauron would have still been vanquished, AND someone else would have dominion over the world.

Are you telling me Sauron did not even CONSIDER this possibility? Nonsense.

: : :Certainly, Sauron, after having the Ring cut from his hand, and regaining some semblance of cognant thought, would have most likely felt that the Ring was destroyed and that it was his own superiority that had saved him. If he did not think this, then he would have begun immediately to discover where the Ring had ended up, knowing that just being parted from it had reduced him to his present form.

: : He would have begun immediately to TRY to discover where it went. Big difference.

: Syntex granted. But he didn't.

Wrong. Because whereas we know that he did not discover it, we do not know that he did not try. That's why it is a big difference.

: : :Without much effort he could have found out that Isuldur had taken the Ring as a trophy, and that Isuldur had been slain.

: : And exactly why do you say this? (And if he could have done it without much effort...then he should have DONE it...)

: Well, let's see, if, as you submit, Sauron is neither convinced of the Ring's loss or destruction, then he would have sought for any news of it, no matter how small.

If you look up "The Disaster of the Gladden Fields," it's clear that by the year 1000 T.A. there would have been no one to tell Sauron of the battle there. Nor, in fact, did any of the forces of evil ever have any direct knowledge of who it was they were fighting there (Isildur), much less what he was carrying. And back to Rivendell came only three men from this battle, and the news of the loss of the ring was never "publicized."

You might ask, incidentally, why Elrond never went to search for the ring. But that's another story.

Anyway, there go your sources.

: :As a matter of fact, at some point Sauron DID find out about Isildur's death, and had his minions searching the Gladden Fields. We have absolutely no idea what his source was, or why it took nearly 3000 to come to light. This point seems to me perfectly consistent with the idea that he simply did not know where to look for the ring.

: Or that he felt the Ring was destroyed. I grant that there are some facts which can go either way, but in the end Sauron did not do what he should have.

This you simply do not know. That he did not search in the Gladden Fields would only prove that he presumed the ring destroyed if you are right that it would have been easy for him to discover what happened there. But if you think about the sources available to him after 1000 T.A., I think you'll see this would have been no easy matter at all.

: But it's been fun! And I love to say "sooner and harder" like that!!

It has been fun. And I've learned much -- at times, I think you actually have a good case. I'll think it over. But at points the case is clearly very weak, I believe.