The White Council

Re: Sauron's ring, and Thorongil in the Palantir

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : The point about what should have happened in Arnor or Gondor : : (or Rivendell) if the ring had been taken (and not lost) is a : : good one. At some point (sooner rather than later, I think) : : Sauron probably should have guessed that if the ring had been : : taken, it had been lost. So now he has the reasonable choice : : between thinking the ring lost or thinking it destroyed.

: Sauron would have known who was close by Elendil and Gil-galad during the last combat. Since none of those people (Isildur, Elrond, or Cirdan) was a Ringlord in TA 1000, it's unlikely Sauron would immediately have assumed the Ring was lost.

Actually, it seems to me that's precisely why it would make sense to think it might be lost.

And once again, I am not claiming he should have assumed it was lost. It is sufficient if he considered that as a reasonable possibility (which of course it was -- though that is clearer from our perspective than it may have been from Sauron's).

[snip]

: With no indication of a Ring-lord, there was no reason to assume that the Ring existed.

But once again, what sort of thinking is this? One does not go around assuming that the One ring has been destroyed just because one cannot be absolutely certain that it hasn't. This is far too important a matter to be so sloppy about for so long. If you are trying to establish once again that it might have made sense to think that _perhaps_ the ring had been destroyed, fine -- but we have all long since agreed to that. I don't see anything here that eliminates the other possibility (that the ring had been taken) from consideration.

:Gandalf knew -- because he knew the Ring existed -- that Barad-dur and the Nazgul were probably still around because the Ring was still around.

I don't see how this makes sense. What about the ring's still existing shows that if it were destroyed Barad-dur and the ringwraiths would cease to exist? Either this is guesswork on the part of Gandalf and Elrond (which they do not suggest it is), or else Sauron should have known it too. Guesswork, even when correct, does not change that. If the ring's still existing suggests so strongly that IT is responsible for Barad-dur and the ringwraiths, that is precisely the sort of suspicion that should have kept Sauron from concluding decisively that the ring had been destroyed. :But that doesn't mean Sauron should have reached the same conclusion. After all, he didn't need to be in possession of the Ring in order to take shape again.

Sauron's being in possession of the ring and the ring's still existing are two completely different facts. No one ever suggested that his mere losing of the ring would made Barad-dur's foundations fall and the ringwraiths disintegrate.

[snip]

: Tolkien doesn't say Aragorn changed clothes. Neither does he say that Aragorn appeared to Sauron "as the Heir of Isildur". Aragorn's words are:

Nor does he say that he showed him any visions from the past.

And are you sure that this passage does not say that Sauron saw Aragorn as the heir of Isildur? Seems to me that that is exactly what the passage you cite states.

:

 :   He drew a deep breath.  'It was a bitter struggle, and the :   weariness is slow to pass. I spoke no word to him, and in the :   end I wrenched the Stone to my own will.  That alone he will :   find hard to endure. And he behld me.  Yes, Master Gimli, he :   saw me, but in other guise than you see me here.  If that will :   aid him, then I have done ill.  But I do not think so.  To know :   that I lived and walked the earth was a blow to his heart, I :   deem; for he knew it not till now.  The eyes in Orthanc did not :   see through the armour of Theoden; but Sauron has not forgotten :   Isildur and the sword of Elendil.  Now in the very hour of his :   great designs the heir of Isildur and the Sword are revealed; :   for I showed the blade reforged to him.  He is not so mighty :   yet that he is above fear; nay, doubt ever gnaws him.' : 

: It is possible that Thorongil is a bad guess, since he was merely a captain among the Dunedain, and not known as an Heir of Isildur. In that case, Aragorn would have to have revealed himself as a lord among the Dunedain of the North.

And how would he do this...other than revealing himself as Aragorn?

:I suppose the question comes down to whether he could construct an image of himself which represented what he was or whether he had to show Sauron something real. I don't believe the Palantiri could be used artistically. Perhaps Aragorn recalled for Sauron the day Elrond told him his true heritage, showing him the Sword that was Broken and the Ring of Barahir, and possibly also the Sceptre of Annuminas and the Star of the North (Tolkien doesn't say Elrond didn't reveal these to Aragorn -- only that he withheld). Such emblems of royalty should be unmistakable.

The need for all such speculations stem from your conviction that Aragorn could not have afforded to appear to Sauron as himself. But I remain unconvinced of this claim (I'm not _sure_ it's wrong, but I haven't seen any proof yet).

: : As for (2), doesn't this presume that Sauron could not have : : tracked him anyway? Unless I am missing something, so long as : : Sauron held his stone he should have been able to track all of : : his enemies within a 500 mile radius.

: Sauron may have been able to supplement the power of the Palantiri with his own strength. However, as far as tracking Aragorn goes, the Ithil Stone, if it was limited to only 500 miles concentrated viewing, would have allowed Sauron to see as far west as the sources of the Lefnui, which rose in the western end of the Ered Nimrais, well beyond Aragorn's course through Gondor.

Whether he could supplement the palantir or not is beside the point, I think. He either could have tracked Aragorn or not, and Aragorn's revealing himself in the palantir does not seem to me to change that one way or another.

What might make some difference is _where_ he thought Aragorn was. And on that issue we have no strong evidence from the text.