The White Council

Re: Gimli & Legolas

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: snip

: : Um, WHAT animosity are you referring to?

: snip

: : But I find the word "animosity" striking far from the mark. : : Legolas and Gimli had been travelling together for weeks : : before the three incidents which have been given so much : : weight by some people.

: From Webster's II: animostiy-long-standing or deep-seated : hostility.

Right. Of which we see none between Legolas and Gimli in THE LORD OF THE RINGS. Nor is there any Elf-Dwarf hostility in the book.

: I'm not certain of a better word for the feelings that dwarves : bore toward elves, or that elves bore for dwarves. Perhaps the : word wasn't the best choice as stated between Gimli and Legolas : as individuals, I was referencing more the animosity between : elves and dwarves, which the text does bear out. If I am not : mistaken, and I often am, the elves of Lorien were most upset : about Gimli's pressence in their woods at the begining, but : because of the company he travelled with, he was allowed to : pass through and even welcomed. I would think that the old : prejudice would still be carried by these two upon their : initial meeting, even if it was only a degree of the old ways.

The text really has nothing to say about any animosity between Elves and Dwarves. They were allies and friends for thousands of years in a few places. There is a passage in the Appendix A where Tolkien says the Dwarves' ancient grudge against the Elves smoldered in the Third Age, but he doesn't mention what the grudge was. Somewhere else (in THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH) it appears that the grudge concerned the hunting of the Noegyth Nibin by the Sindar in the First Age. Well, that's not a well-developed theme and it certainly doesn't poke through anywhere in THE LORD OF THE RINGS.

Haldir the march-warden of Lorien was extremely polite toward Gimli, and he expressed no personal animosity toward Dwarves. Lorien had an ancient law (unexplained) which forbade Dwarves entry to the land. Why should that be a sign of general hostility between Elves and Dwarves? Thranduil's people were friends and allies with the Dwarves of Erebor, and Elrond seemed content to accept Dwarven visitors on occasion.

As for Lorien's law, all the Elves seemed eager enough to set it aside when the chance came. And had it not been for the fact that Elrond had asked the Lorien Elves to help the Company of the Ring, what do you think the odds were of their being admitted anyway? Haldir said they didn't admit strangers to their land. Aragorn was known to them but no one else in the Company. Should we assume that there was animosity between Elves and Hobbits because Lorien didn't admit Hobbits?

Celeborn welcomed Gimli warmly, but recanted when he heard about the Balrog. His reaction wasn't along the lines of "I hate all Dwarves, they are filthy animals" it was "if I had known this I wouldn't have permitted you or any of your companions (including the Ringbearer and Aragorn) to enter the country". But his grave concern over a possible threat to his people was tempered by Galadriel's compassion, and he asked Gimli's forgiveness. I've known a few bigots in my time and they don't ask forgiveness for their harsh words so easily.

Then there is Gandalf's famous statement about how if all the grievances which lay between Elves and Dwarves were to be brought up, the council was finished. How many grievances should that be? Any more than, say, the grievances between Elves and Men? Or the grievances between Dwarves and Men? THE LORD OF THE RINGS says there was often strife between Dwarves and Men, but it doesn't say the same about Dwarves and Elves. If there is so much clearly visible hostility between Elves and Dwarves, why doesn't the book mention it?

This issue comes up every now and then. I suppose long-time readers of this board are tired of seeing me go on and on about the ancient friendships, but even today, after many years of seeing people state the Elves and Dwarves didn't get along, I am astonished that anyone reading the book can reach such a conclusion. Tolkien himself (in one of his letters) wrote of the usually hostile races of Elves and Dwarves (I'm paraphrasing) in his world, but he never substantiates that assertion with any story.

Elves and Dwarves in Tolkien are usually NOT hostile. Both races are more likely to go to war with Men or Orcs than they are with each other. In all their history, there was only one war between them (and a near-miss at Erebor). The Elves fought with Men in the First Age (after the Folk of Ulfang turned on them), they fought with Men in the Second Age (those Men who served Sauron), and they fought with Men in the Third Age (in the wars with Angmar). The Dwarves fought with Men in the First Age (apparently -- at least, "Narn i Hin Hurin" implies this). They fought with Men in the Second Age (as with the Elves, they fought Men who served Sauron). And they fought with Men in the Third Age (and perhaps their most famous dispute was their disagreement with Fram of the Eotheod).

Where are all the Elf-Dwarf wars if these races are so mutually hostile? Tolkien never put the hostility into the tradition, though he may have envisioned it. The Elves, at least, were always willing to reach out to the Dwarves after they learned the Dwarves were rational incarnates (and the Noegyth Nibin initiated the hostilties anyway -- the Elves merely defended themselves at first from what they thought were some sort of beasts, even if they did later hunt them).

If Elves and Dwarves were normally disposed to fight with each other, we should have seen some arguing or something between Gimli and Legolas. Not necessarily reduced to the level of trading racial slurs, but to the point of where Gandalf's request that they be friends take on some greater meaning than it does.

Many will, I'm sure, remain convinced the Elves and Dwarves don't like each other, but I personally hold this view to be as "canonical" as the ale-guzzling Dwarf-tradition which came out of role-playing games.