The White Council

Re: Christianity in Middle-Earth?

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : : : : One must remember that Christianity does not have the patent or copyright on goodness and self-sacrifice, nor indeed forgiveness or love

No debate there.

: Gandalf, yes good analogy, but Gandalf was an immortal spirit, and therefore di not rise from the dead, his 'fana' was merely replenished, and there is no suggestion that he is Illuvatar's son.

Good point.

: There are also if you look hard enough overtures of nature worship in Elven adoration of trees,

This is a fine distinction I am about to attempt, so it may not work. But there is a difference between "worship" in the sense I take you meaning it here, and "reverence" or even "respect". Take for example early Celtic Christianity and its focus on nature and Creation which one may or may not argue was "nature worship" in Christian guise, but nonetheless is thorougly Christian and still has a very positive view and concern for nature. Back to Tolkien: I don't think that Elves "worship" nature so much as they reverence it, and care for nature, and the created world.

> and also many other religions show a face - the Valar are revered as a pantheon of gods almost, each with there own area of expertise, like the Roman world.

Yes and no. Like the Roman world, yes, but also very like the medieval wherein Roman divinities are baptized and given Christian identities and have realms of influence, but are subsumed under the One Godhead. Similarly in the Christian Old Testement are statements which indicate that other divine beings exist, some good, some evil, all having a particular role in the created order. All this gets swept up and included in the medieval world view, a world view I would suggest (and certainly many others more qualified than I have done so in print)is the world view of the inhabitants of Middle Earth.

: I actually put a point in a mo ago not realising the thread had gone this far, but essentially, the message may have CHristian overtures, but as Tolkein presents this as a work of our own history, then it is incompatible with Christianity as Christ had not been born. I'm not suggesting it IS historical, but if Tolkein wants to portray it so, he can't have his cahracters espousing vitues from a religion that does not exist yet, in fact, they cannot act like christians until Christ has livced (and died) for their sins, all my own thought of course and I hope noone takes offence

None taken. I would say that rather than espouse virtues of a religion not yet born, he has constructed a world that has a particular world view, and a particular structure to the universe, that reflects Tolkien's Catholic background. One can point to certain specific aspects where this shows through very clearly---Gwahir's song for example sounds very like a Psalm, the literary device of the Christ-figure, of which there are several in LoTR--but I think it clearest in the structure of the universe--Iluvatar, Valar, Malkor being less than Iluvatar though the best of the Valar yet seeks an earthly kingdom and imitates Iluvatar, the idea of a place where daily work takes place, but it is a "heaven", or "haven" for those who go there, and so on. Are there pagan elements? Sure, but at least off the top of my head all the pagan elements I can think of are also elements taken up and baptized and reused in medieval Christianity---i. e. Isles of the Blessed, Halls of Mandos, and so on. Anyway, that's my .05

Forkbeard