The White Council

Re: Orc Heights (Re: One for Neithan, or how to kill the little guys.)

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : How, or where, did you obtain the heights you gave for Orcs?

: : : Just curious, because I thought a common orc/goblin was around five feet tall , while Uruk-hai were closer to six feet.

: : Well there are fairly detailed notes on Hobbit heights, and Frodo and Sam passed themselves off as Snaga-type orcs in Gorgoroth. It was an exceptional Hobbit who made it to 4ft in height (was Bullroarer Took 4ft 5ins ??). So I reckoned that 3 to 4 ft would be about right for your average unimproved orc. : : The uruks were described as being " almost man-height" , as this was a descriptive phrase within the text of a novel (not in a commentary) I would take this to be a reference to the average height of a modern man of European descent rather than a direct comparison to men of Middle Earth. Of course even here, for Aragorn and Eomer to be described as tall there must have been a majority of men shorter than they. As a good 90% of Europeans would fall within the 5ft to 6ft2in range of heights and given that the uruks were bred from creatures of 3 to 4 ft in height it would seem to me that a similar distribution for uruks would be say 4ft to 5ft 2in. With the majority in the range of 4ft 3 to 4ft 7 or thereabouts.

: There were most likely a variety of breeds of Orc with various sizes. Frodo and Sam passed for smaller 'snaga' orcs as you mention. However I think your estimate for the Uruk-hai is a bit small. In my opionion and my take on reading the various books the Uruk-hai would average closer to six feet than five.

But that would be man-height not "almost man-height".

There seems to be a mis-apprehension about human height in ME. Essentially the only folk outside of the range of heights of modern Europeans are the Numenoreans. Their height was partly artificial - the effect of living in Numenor. The height of the Dunedain in ME dwindled as this effect was diluted by the generations following the Akkalabeth, and by intermarriage with other races of men.

The folk of the House of Hador were tall before the trip to Numenor but equally the other houses (Beor and Haleth) seem to have been a good deal shorter.

In ME the only folk other than Dunedain described as particularly tall were the Rohirrim and the Dunlendings (or perhaps some of them). However, this could not be generalised to the whole of their greater races (Northmen and Gwathuirim) as some of their respective relatives (Beorians, Halethians and Men of Bree, and by inference the Folk of the White Mountains) are described as being relatively short. Indeed for any of the people of ME to be described as tall logic requires that the bulk of humanity be shorter.

It is strange that Tolkien who was perhaps on the short side of average height, set such store by the supposed desirability of tallness.

I think that "almost man-height" is a term open to some disputed apprehension. Does this mean almost the average height for Englishmen of Tolkien's generation? Which would be 5ft 8-9ins. Or average height of English humans (Man meaning mankind rather than male human) which would bring the mean down to about 5ft 5ins. Or almost the height of the average for the world's population as a whole? This would lower the figure even further to about 5 ft 3ins.

I think the height of snagas is fairly solid and though considerably larger there is no evidence in the texts that the uruks were twice the height of the lesser orcs. I therefore still think that it would be an exceptional uruk who was of greater height than 5ft.