The White Council

Re: Arwen and Aragorn in movie

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : : : : : I recently re-read the appendix section on Arwen and : : : : Aragorn in the back of ROTK - I think this is one the most : : : : touching passgaes in all his works... it sheds light on their : : : : relationship that you don't even BEGIN to grasp from the book : : : : itself. I wonder if this will be brought somewhat in the movie? : : : : A puirist though I am, I wouldn't mind the addition...

: : : : : : Personally, no offence..... But I don't find it all that : : : : touching..... : : : : : : I've read some critic saying that Tolkien was a childish : : : : writer, who did not have depth to his book, part of the reason : : : : was that there were no real women in his works, and that there : : : : were no realistic approaches to human relations.

: : : : : : Okai, I dun agree with this, books dun need sex. But apart : : : : from that, I do agree that LotR lacks depth to the human : : : : relationships..... Celeborn and Galadriel's love was never really : : : : elaborated on, nor very detailed. And I think that's the same : : : : with the Aragorn/Arwen thing. Sure, all nice and romantic, man : : : : off to claim a kingdom, and win a princess's hand, but there were : : : : no details.... : : : : : : A brief history of their meeting, but not very real, it was : : : : like a legend, not a realistic story...

: : : : : : I dunno how to put this in a coherent way! The whole love : : : : story struck me as being removed... like a historian documenting : : : : things, rather than feeling like you're there, like the rest of : : : : LotR. I think that Beren/Luthien was much better, and I guess a : : : : large part of that is the fact that there's so much more detail : : : : to it. I'm afraid that Aragorn/Arwen just wasn't elaborated : : : : enough for me. That's just my opinion of course... : : : : : : I've heard better love stories, more romantic deeds, and more : : : : personal stories, than their's, that's all!

: : : : : : Gandalf

: : : : : Added to which, the abandonment of her heritage and her father : : : : for the sake of love is hardly a good thing, nor romantic, it : : : : tipifies selfishness and the abandonment of duty. Arwen and : : : : Aragorn exemplify the reasoning that love conquers all, and in : : : : the process destroys a great deal as well - not least the elven : : : : noontide in middle-earth. : : : : : Love is by definition a selfish emotion when applied to two : : : : people

: : : : : : : Tolkien is writing from a Middle age culture where one's duty is : : : : more important than love. He also claimed was writing like a : : : : historian in his comment

: : : There may have been an ideal regarding duty and love, but like most ideals was rarely upheld in real life. Eleanor of Aquitaine married Louis of France, but later got the marriage anulled to marry Henry II of England. She was hurt and betrayed by Henry's infidelity with Rosamond (among others perhaps) and led a number of unsuccessful rebellions against him. He kept her locked up until his death, when her son Richard (cour de lion) had her released upon his ascension to the throne. The concept of political duty over love (or lust) is more a fable than a reality in middle ages.

: : : I also disagree that "true" love is selfish. It is an outgoing concern for another. Romantic love on the other hand is often associated with doom and despair - ala Romeo and Juliet. Tolkien adds elements of this despair into both Beren and Luthien and Aragorn and Arwen. I see no lapse in Arwen's duty insofar as she had her fathers blessing on her marriage to Aragorn. She was thus officially relieved of any obligations she may have had to her people. At the same time her compassion and wisdom may have been useful in healing the wounds from centuries of evil domination by Sauron. In other words, she was needed more after the War. Had she not married Aragorn she would have gone to the Grey Havens and departed. By staying I believe she obligated herself to greater duties.

: : She did not stay to heal the world, she stayed to be with Aragorn, and when he died she ran off and died herself. : : Love has to be selfish. : : Compassion is another matter - that is somehthing you give to everyone, not blindly and to one person : : Arwen made the wrong choice in my opinion, and I think she also realised this - their story paralells Beren and Luthien and as such, there can be no happy ever after

: I still disagree. It is true that Arwen found her choice to be bitter in the end, I fail to see what good would have come from her following her father into the West. And even if her choice was selfish (the point upon which we disagree), it's effects transcended her personal motives.

Okai, well, I never thought that my opinion would come to THIS, but hey. We're now disgussing love, and whether it's selfish or not? IF Arwen had left, as per Elrond's wishes, then it would have been Elrond's love which was jealous, and selfish. No matter what end was chosen, someone had to be hurt, and such is the way of life. Maybe Arwen's choice was the lesser of two evils, and maybe it gave hope to a dwindling line...

Gandalf