The White Council

Re: Elven and Dwarven Weapons and their Use

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : : : First, I forgot to ask where you got the information concerning : : : : axes? I seem to remember the same thing but suspect it is a : : : : MERP info.

: Not MERP. ICE made many 'errors' regarding how the Quendi (and others) should 'traditonally' be equipped. When I was actively gaming I would often point out these 'errors' and the usual response was something about "play balance". How equipping or saying this is a tradional weapon of a certain race/culture effects play balance I do not know.

: : : The information provided by Tar-Elenion is pretty accurate. You can find references to the weapons preferred by the Noldor and Sindar of the First Age in THE SILMARILLION, UNFINISHED TALES, and a few other sources.

: Thank you Michael. : There are some assumptions I make, which I note in my posts, but most of it is either direct or a 'reasonable' inference from the corpus. In particular pay attention to UT 'Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin'. One of the HoME books also states the prefered weapons of the Eldarin tribes, I think it is 'Lost Road' : but wont swear to it (some of which was revised by JRRT in other writings but no correction made in that, eg he calls (IIRC) the Sindar the 'staff-Elves' but later revised it to 'axe-Elves'.

: : : : : Secondly, that sort of equipment seem not to be very suited for : : : : auxillia moving around in forests (remember how Quintillius : : : : Varus fared with his heavy legions?). I would agree with : : : : regards to a small elite, but as the Sindar and Silvan elves : : : : were mostly bimbling around in forests I see them as somewhat : : : : lighter equipped.

: : : The Sindar of Beleriand lived in a variety of environments. Cirdan's folk were coastal dwellers. The Sindar of Nevrast were absorbed into Turgon's kingdom, and the Sindar of Hithlum and Dorthonion were absorbed into the kingdoms of Hithlum and Nargothrond.

: As Michael says and additionally even those of Doriath fought in a variety of enviroments.

: : : The Sindar were originally equipped by the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost, who taught them how to make swords, spears, axes, shields, helms, and mail. The Noldor were probably better smiths than the Sindar overall (Eol was an exception, of course) but the Sindar were hardly unsophisticated.

: Exactly. It is interesting to contemplate in what ways the military systems of the Sindar and the Naugrim may have resembled one another.

: : : The Green-elves of Ossiriand were said to be lightly armed and armored, and it's reasonable to infer that other Nandorin groups and the Avari will also lightly armed and armored.

: : : At least some of the Elves of Lorien wore mail (mail-clad warriors guard the base of Celeborn and Galadriel's tree). Arms and armor would have most reflected the needs of the Elves. Thranduil's people probably did not need to meet the great threats that the more ancient Elvish kingdoms of Beleriand had once contended with.

: : No, and for ambushing and deluding those threats that did arise, heavy infantry would be fairly encumbering, of course the elves would have troops to suit every need they might have to face but they would put most emphasis on rangers/skirmishers auxilia IMO and to such, heavy mail is simply impractical, a small mailshirt at most. I speak from experience, fighting in forests and similar rough terrain is hard work even without mailshirts. : : NT

: While they would have lighter armed troops as well, I picture the main reliance of the Sindar (at least in the major realms) as on heavy axe armed infantry well supported by lighter armed archers and rangers/scouts. Well armed soldiers in the middle-ages carried about the same weight in arms and equipment that modern soldiers do today. While mail may be encumbering, I would think that engaging in combat with it on is preferable to not having any armour at all. It does remind me of stories about Flanders and the Low Countries during the 1500s and how the soldiers fighting there would contrive to 'lose' peices of armour and weapons while marching through the mud. '... tassets, who needs em to heavy (toss), helmet gives me a headache (toss), sword keeps gettin' in the way (toss), breastplate to hot (toss)'. Then the Spanish would show up... .

: There beryl, pearl and opal pale : and metal wrought like fishes mail : buckler and corselet, axe and sword : and gleaming spears were laid in hoard.

I agree that there is a possibility for elves being armed as you seem to imply, but historically, heavily armed troops has always fared bad in woods. Heavy troops need to maintain formation, if they play the skirmisher game they will be outmaneuvered and die. Further, trees make it hard to maintain formation. NT