The White Council

Re: The Three.... again

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: Thank you for addressing the argument.

: However, I think that you are taking your opinion that Middle Earth is actually our world, possibly, too literally. Now, I haven't thought this through too thoroughly, but, bear with me.

: Tolkien said that Middle Earth was what he thought could have been the state of affairs in an extra-historical time period before Christ. Now, I don't think that Tolkien was a big one for too much scientific agreement between our world and ME. The sun and moon as lamps, for instance, or the existence of magic itself. Remember, Tolkien was attempted to construct an active mythology. As such, I am not convinced that he was very concerned with scientific accuracy or much other agreement between our world and ME. In the crafting of a myth, he made the two worlds similar enough so that the readers could identify well with the characters and that the world remained intelligible. However, the statements he was trying to make were not about science. LotR is primarily a literary work and must be treated as such. Now, I agree that there are inconsistencies in the story. However, this was a theme that I think was important to JRRT. I don't think that he would have been careless about the construction of this particular theme, for the reasons stated in previous posts.

: So, as a mythological and literary construct, I am not convinced that we have the authority to impose rules from our world on JRRT's work that he may never have intended to apply. We can, however, logically and thoroughly debate what the laws are that he DID intend to apply to ME (which we are currently doing). But, I think that, maybe, our disagreement stems from an ontological disagreement; that is, we have a fundamental disagreement as to the nature of the world itself.

: We can also debate the literary points of the story. A further problem is that we've been missing each other because I have been arguing more from a literary standpoint and you from more of a physical standpoint.

: -Olorin

Ahhh, we seem to be getting somewhere! I agree that Middle-Earth may not be out world. In fact, there is a good deal of un-answerable questions if it IS our world. But that hardly diminishes the argument, that some things are simply illogical in Tolkien's works.

I am NOT merely talking about technology, or "science", I am talking about the possibility, probability, and overall logical binding of his works. If something just doesn't make sense, it has no credibility with readers. Of course, many people tried to argue that no one would relate to LotR when it first came out, because it was a "fairy" story, for children. However, the underlying themes and events makes it one heck of a brilliant book. HOWEVER, if there should be illogical parts, then this readability, and state of suspended belief would be shattered. I am not saying that this small matter of the rings is so astronomical that it would ruin the book. Far from it. I merely wanted to discuss whether it is an inconsistancy or not. Personally, I find it illogical that the rings which Sauron did not touch, did see, and probably didn't know about for quite a while, should lose their power when Sauron's One ring iperishes. Especially since these rings pre-date Sauron's One master ring. If they worked before the One, and were hidden during the dominion of the One, then they should survive the fall of the One.

Of course, that's merely my humble opinion.

Gandalf