The White Council

Re: The Three.... again

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : Big snip : : : : : All that was needed to ruin all of the rings was one connection, that connection would lead to the other, and so forth. The one ring was a highly contagious virus, and every connection it had, it infected. The elven ring's lore was connected to the One in some way or another, thus they were infected.

: : : : Okai, excuse me, but i have always envisioned lore as knowledge, as say (I have pointed out about a million times) the law of gravity. It's a special conceptual idea or knowledge. As far as I know, Gravity cannot be tainted with any viruses, no matter how many universal laws people come up with.

: : : : Newton came up with the "Lore" to predict trajectory motion. Einstein covered it, encapsulated it in his laws of relativity. That hardly affected or "destroyed" Newton's laws. It built on it. If Einstein's laws, or applications of them were to be disproved/destroyed, then I can hardly see why Newtons would be too.

: : : : You must remember that the Rings represent the application of knowledge. They are the physical fruits of knowledge gathering. However, if one was to be destroyed by misadventure, it is hardly going to destroy the lore.

: : : : It's like a car. If only one person on earth was smart enough to make a car, and by some terrible mistake, that person and his car perished. That would hardly mean that cars could no longer be made, and it does not mean that the ability for cars to be made in the future would diminish. Such an idea is absurd, so I fail to see why some people on this board just don't get it.

: : : : Gandalf

: : : Thus you summarise your understanding of lore... : : : In my opinnion, the power of the three was the will of the maker, in their meaning. He so desired them to be what they were that his desires were met... you may say that, like Sauron, he invested some of his spirit in them. In this case, what does it have to do with lore?

: : : : ERM, NO! : : Sauron invested his power into the ONE RING. : : He did not create the knowledge of RINGLORE through his will, or his being. I don't think it mentions anywhere that Sauron's will was solely responsible for the forging of even the least of his trifles.

: : I do believe however, that it mentions Ringlore being a combined research effort between the elves, chiefly Celebrimbor, and also supported by the knowledge of Sauron.

: : I don't think that Ringlore was something that Sauron came up with. It was something he discovered through research, trial and error, and knowledge of the ways of nature (Middle-Earthian physics if you will).

: : This culmulated into Ringlore, and gave Celebrimbor the knowledge of how to make the rings.

: : IF ringlore was based solely on Sauron's will, then when he was vanquished by the last alliance, his will and power were so reduced that all the other rings would have lost at least a major part of their potency.

: : I am afraid that theroy doesn't hold water. Ringlore isn't something that was created by anyone's will, it was a process, a knowledge of physics, and a craftman's skill. I repeat, GRAVITY DID NOT DIE WITH NEWTON!

: : Gandalf

: You entirely read me wrong... firstly because "you may say that, like Sauron, he invested some of his spirit in them." was a mistype, I meant to say, "you may say that, like Sauron invested his power into the One, Celeborn invested some of his spirit into the them.". Secondly, because the Silmarills, the Three, Seven, and the Nine were all created with the will to have created them, and I grant that maybe the lore had something to do with their interconnection... Take, for example, Aule made the Dwarves in his desire, and will to create. Feanor made the Silmarills in his undeniably extensive will. So, now I say again, Celeborn's will to create the three and the power thereof was not in any way based on technical intellegence, or research... this brings upon the indisputable question of, why and how did Eru create Arda?

I am not sure if you're misinformed, or it was just a slip of the.... fingers. It was Celebrimbor who made all the cool artefacts, and had his head paraded around on a pole. Celeborn didn't do much at all, except make rude remarks about Dwarves to Gimli.

Now, to the real issue. First of all, I have no idea why it's an "indisputable question as to how Eru made Arda". First of all, he's God. He can do anything, that's what religion is about. I'm afraid that although I hate saying it, "it just is". That's the whole point of an all powerful God. Anyway, that's besides the point.

Secondly, from whence did you get the information that the rings were not merely just a technical matter, but actually made by a force of will?? I think that may just be the way you read LotR, but if you step back and consider it... How on earth can Saruman uncover enough Ring-Lore to make his own ring, if it had nothing to do with technical engineering? How can so many rings be forged by various smiths, if it's merely Celebrimbor and Sauron's wills? (I do believe that the minor rings, "Essays in the craft" weren't merely made by Celebrimbor, but also by the other smiths of Eregion).

Aule didn't make the dwarves with mere strength of mind. He was the Valar of smithcraft. It was his craft, and his special interest that unearthed the technical details as to HOW to make a race of people. When it comes down to it, all he could make was something very technical, a group of automated robots, who had no Fea. It was Eru who granted them life. This points to the fact that NO ONE but Eru can "MAKE" Lore. (What I mean by Lore is what WE consider laws of nature, E.G Gravity). Other people, including the Valar, can only discover the lore, and use it to make stuff. This is why Melkor cannot create, but can only corrupt.

So thinking about that, everyone on Middle-Earth must follow these physical laws of nature. Sure these laws are highly different from those of our world, BUT there are laws never the less.

What Celebrimbor did, can be learnt. Sure, it takes talent to understand and it takes talent (and skill of hand) to remake, BUT the argument stands that it can be done. It IS a technical matter.

The rings weren't made by the mere Will of Sauron. They were based on the laws of Middle-Earth physics (What I have fairly consistantly called Lore).

It is highly plausible for another smith of fair skill to remake another ring.

But this has gotten off the topic as to why the Three should fade.

The reason is... because the Lore is still there, there is no reason for the Three to fade....

Under your argumen, if the Three were made by Celebrimbor's will, then they should have faded with HIM, and not the One.

The One gained control for a little while, but I stress that control of the Three was VERY weak. Elrond had 2 of the Three, and he was present at the Last Alliance. Why did Sauron not know the whereabouts of the Three for so long?

I rest my case. I believe that the power of the Three should have lived on.

Gandalf