The White Council

Re: Creatures, ainur, or apparitions?

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : : Ahh, a debatable point... Were dragons perverted creatures, or Maiar integrated with perverted creation? And as for the rest, what would you say was the origin of the 'creatures' that Gandalf saw when he fell from the bridge in Moria? These apparently did not have any designated leader or race. They could have been 'expirimental creations'?

: : : From The White Rider:

: : : 'Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he.'

: : : These creatures had probably existed since before the Valar entered the world. I assume them to be related to the Watcher in the Water, but I don't think they fit any of the categories given in The Silmarillion; i.e., Valar, Maiar, Elves, Men, Dwarves, etc. More likely their origin is ambiguous, similar to creatures such as Ungoliant.

: : Interesting, could they have been created by the 'off key' music of Morgoth? Were they perversions of lower ainur order than the Maia? Perhaps we should speculate on this. In my opinnion, they were apparitions, Gandalf was, after all in a very stressful situation. I have never heard of The White Rider, but if it was not written by JRRT, then I would question the content. : : Maedhros

: The White Rider is the title of chapter five of The Two Towers :)

: It is certainly possible that the creatures Gandalf describes were created during the Music of the Ainur, but I do not believe they were apparitions. Certainly the Watcher in the Water was no phantom, and yet its like is described nowhere else (nor do I think it was a Maia).

My memory again deceives me, it is obviously time for me to reread LOTR. Perhaps Eru created them as a new order, not of the ainur, and they were mislead to the side of Morgoth? They may have been the every mistake of the music made by Morgoth? They were like the ainur, and the elves only (they had unlimited lifespan), perhaps they were like the dwarves of Aule, or partitions of a 'fallen Valar' who chose to be strong in quantity, other than quality? I have come to beleive that JRRT intended this to be 'over-thaught' considering that he mentones it in a mysteriously interesting undertone. Maedhros