: : Now, to the real issue. First of all, I have no idea why it's an "indisputable question as to how Eru made Arda". First of all, he's God. He can do anything, that's what religion is about. I'm afraid that although I hate saying it, "it just is". That's the whole point of an all powerful God. Anyway, that's besides the point.: Exactly why it's indisputable.
: : Secondly, from whence did you get the information that the rings were not merely just a technical matter, but actually made by a force of will?? I think that may just be the way you read LotR, but if you step back and consider it... : : How on earth can Saruman uncover enough Ring-Lore to make his own ring, if it had nothing to do with technical engineering?
: He uncovered the Ring-Lore with greater will than what was used in the forging.
: : How can so many rings be forged by various smiths, if it's merely Celebrimbor and Sauron's wills? (I do believe that the minor rings, "Essays in the craft" weren't merely made by Celebrimbor, but also by the other smiths of Eregion).
: Every creature with life had will.
: : Aule didn't make the dwarves with mere strength of mind. He was the Valar of smithcraft. It was his craft, and his special interest that unearthed the technical details as to HOW to make a race of people. When it comes down to it, all he could make was something very technical, a group of automated robots, who had no Fea. It was Eru who granted them life. This points to the fact that NO ONE but Eru can "MAKE" Lore. (What I mean by Lore is what WE consider laws of nature, E.G Gravity). Other people, including the Valar, can only discover the lore, and use it to make stuff. This is why Melkor cannot create, but can only corrupt.
: Point granted, although Aule had to use much will to create the 'animated robots', as well as technical skill and knowlege. (yes, he was indeed a Vala of skill and smithship)
: : So thinking about that, everyone on Middle-Earth must follow these physical laws of nature. Sure these laws are highly different from those of our world, BUT there are laws never the less.
: Was I ever arguing against that?
: : What Celebrimbor did, can be learnt. Sure, it takes talent to understand and it takes talent (and skill of hand) to remake, BUT the argument stands that it can be done. It IS a technical matter.
: The technicallity is in the forging of the ring, the special properties are in the will to have them there.
: : The rings weren't made by the mere Will of Sauron. They were based on the laws of Middle-Earth physics (What I have fairly consistantly called Lore).
: I grant that they were made with skill, AS WELL AS WILL.
: : It is highly plausible for another smith of fair skill to remake another ring.
: But unlikely... like I said in a previous post, they are geting lazy.
: : But this has gotten off the topic as to why the Three should fade.
: : The reason is... because the Lore is still there, there is no reason for the Three to fade....
: This point I can understand... but like is always said. "No one but Tolkien knows the rules to his world"
: : Under your argumen, if the Three were made by Celebrimbor's will, then they should have faded with HIM, and not the One.
: Anglachel died not with Eol, but with Turin, its owner. If Elrond died while in ownership of his ring, it would have faded as well.
: : The One gained control for a little while, but I stress that control of the Three was VERY weak. Elrond had 2 of the Three, and he was present at the Last Alliance. Why did Sauron not know the whereabouts of the Three for so long?
: They were hidden, and not being used. He could see/access them while they were being worn.
: : I rest my case. I believe that the power of the Three should have lived on.
: : Gandalf
: That would be Tolkiens little secret, and no amount of debating will change it. : Maedhros
Ahhhh, you realise that your method of posting makes replying very difficult!
Anyway, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that in essence, what you're saying is that the rings were made with skill and craft, and what made them rings of power was the WILL of the maker, do I read you correctly?
Umm, like you said, everyone and everything living has a will. In that case, it just takes someone VERY determined to make a very powerful ring.
Okai, what's your definition of willpower? I take it to mean strength of mind, knowledge of others/surroundings, and DESIRE for something.
Thus, Feanor had a VERY strong will, because a) he was a very strong minded individual, listening to his own counsel mostly (and this ties into desire). He had no mental capacity for others, he had his burning desires for his own creations, making and hording them. He had superior knowledge, due to his intensive studies with other elves, and Aule.
Due to this, he made mighty artefacts....
Okai, likewise, Sauron has a strong will. So does Gandalf and Saruman. So does Galadriel, Celeborn, Glorfindel, and many, many elves of Elrond's household.
Think about it, the determining factor isn't really will power, it's the skill and knowledge and subtlety of hand that makes the smith great.
Who says that tomorrow won't be born so skillful a smith, that he can match Feanor? As for will, well, that's just a way of saying that he wants something enough. An unbending will is merely a very close minded person. Okai, maybe single minded would be fairer, but the point remains that the Will is something to do with personality, not necessarily skill.
I fail to see why an overly strong will is necessary in the creation of something. Sure, it helps if the smith has a burning desire to create, BUT, it is hardly a necessary factor. Subtlety of mind and hand is what's important.
But even using your own arguments, if we assume you're right for a moment..... Umm, you say that Saruman used greater will in uncovering Ring-Lore than in their making?? Okai, that makes NO sense! If Saruman had such strength of mind, he would have made his own ring, and over-thrown Sauron long ago. No, Saruman had a great will, but not the SKILL to make such a ring. BUT, that's not to say that another elf won't come along, and make another! You say that all it takes is will power to make these artefacts of great power, and that Aule used will to make dwarves, and that ALL LIVING THINGS HAVE A WILL. Doesn't that just reiterate my point that it's even more likely another smith will make a ring??
As Don Quixote points out in the postings below, many smiths or Eregion, probably involved in the forging of the original rings were still in refuge at Imladris. Once the threat of the One dissappeared, why shouldn't they dig out some old grimores, and get making again?
That's the point really, it is POSSIBLE to make more rings.... The knowledge and the ability for rings to be made did NOT die with the One, so why should the Three die?? They shouldn't have....
Gandalf
