The White Council

Re: The Three.... again

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

Enormous snip : Ahhhh, you realise that your method of posting makes replying very difficult!

Yes, this way I can answer each reply individually...

: Anyway, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that in essence, what you're saying is that the rings were made with skill and craft, and what made them rings of power was the WILL of the maker, do I read you correctly?

The will infused with the knowledge (greater knoweledge generally allowed the will to be more focused) was the source of the non-physical properties, or the magic so to speak.

: Umm, like you said, everyone and everything living has a will. In that case, it just takes someone VERY determined to make a very powerful ring.

Determination is the only possible way to induce non-physical properties... please explain what you beleive the laws of physics (or as you call it, 'lore') had to do with this?

: Okai, what's your definition of willpower? I take it to mean strength of mind, knowledge of others/surroundings, and DESIRE for something.

That is more or less how I would define it, except "knowledge of others/surroundings".

: Thus, Feanor had a VERY strong will, because a) he was a very strong minded individual, listening to his own counsel mostly (and this ties into desire). He had no mental capacity for others, he had his burning desires for his own creations, making and hording them. He had superior knowledge, due to his intensive studies with other elves, and Aule.

: Due to this, he made mighty artefacts....

Feanor's will was the greatest of all elves and men, nor was he lazy.

: Okai, likewise, Sauron has a strong will. So does Gandalf and Saruman. So does Galadriel, Celeborn, Glorfindel, and many, many elves of Elrond's household.

: Think about it, the determining factor isn't really will power, it's the skill and knowledge and subtlety of hand that makes the smith great.

Great artifacts can be made by a those of great skill, but these artifacts' greatness is in their physical finesse; Also great artifacts can be made by those of great will, these artifacts, though not physically perfect (as the other example), have great powers not harnessed by physics.

: Who says that tomorrow won't be born so skillful a smith, that he can match Feanor? As for will, well, that's just a way of saying that he wants something enough. An unbending will is merely a very close minded person. Okai, maybe single minded would be fairer, but the point remains that the Will is something to do with personality, not necessarily skill.

This is correct. Only by returning to the ways of old will any elf ever acheive such perfection as Feanor's works (it would take a VERY determined elf to match Feanor)

: I fail to see why an overly strong will is necessary in the creation of something. Sure, it helps if the smith has a burning desire to create, BUT, it is hardly a necessary factor. Subtlety of mind and hand is what's important.

Alright, if you would like a burger that tastes better than anything you have tasted in your life, that's great... I would rather have a crappy burger that I eat once, and it supplies me for eternity.

: But even using your own arguments, if we assume you're right for a moment..... Umm, you say that Saruman used greater will in uncovering Ring-Lore than in their making?? Okai, that makes NO sense! If Saruman had such strength of mind, he would have made his own ring, and over-thrown Sauron long ago. No, Saruman had a great will, but not the SKILL to make such a ring. BUT, that's not to say that another elf won't come along, and make another! : You say that all it takes is will power to make these artefacts of great power, and that Aule used will to make dwarves, and that ALL LIVING THINGS HAVE A WILL. Doesn't that just reiterate my point that it's even more likely another smith will make a ring??

Saruman had the will, and not the skill, so he could not make a new ring (I can agree with this)... Please note, IT TAKES BOTH (a point that I have been stressing). As for his will to uncover the ring lore, the rings magical power was in it's will, Saruman used greater will to defeat the raw power in it, and overcome it. How does it not make sence?

: As Don Quixote points out in the postings below, many smiths or Eregion, probably involved in the forging of the original rings were still in refuge at Imladris. Once the threat of the One dissappeared, why shouldn't they dig out some old grimores, and get making again?

They were not motivated.

: That's the point really, it is POSSIBLE to make more rings.... : The knowledge and the ability for rings to be made did NOT die with the One, so why should the Three die?? : They shouldn't have....

Tolkein says that they did, and, guess what?? THEY DID! Of course it's possible to make more, name ONE elf from the fourth age with the skill, will, and/or motivation to make them.

: Gandalf

Maedhros