The White Council

Re: Come off it

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : : : : Name a feat in the Third Age that was equal to or greater than feats in the First and second ages. Or, name a character born in the third age who was equal to or greater than a character in a previous age (within reasonable limits. Comparing Aragorn to Isildur's gardner isn't fair. So, of equal rank in the different ages. King to king, prince to prince, etc.)

: : : : : : Remember, the wisest elf of the third age was just Gil-Galad's herald.

: : : : : Wisdom is relative: Galadriel, Celeborn, Elrond, Glorfindel and Cirdan all possessed the wisdom of the ages. However, I strongly agree that the characters of the First and Second ages would never again see their equal in Middle-earth.

: : : : Hey, THAT isn't fair. We don't know enough about ppl born in the Third age and successive ages.... AND you won't let me mention Aragorn. Why's that? I reckon that the ofspring of Aragorn and Arwen would REALLY kick arse..... Pretty high heritage there...

: : : : Or do you mean by ppl that are around during the war of the ring? : : : : Obviously you are assuming Gil-Galad's superiority over Elrond, JUST because of his high lineage. It's not a question just of power and wisdom. Why is it that everyone named as a leader happened to be of royal blood? Does that mean that the wisest will ALWAYS be of the houses of the nobility? Erm, maybe not... : : : : Elrond was the leader of Imladris. He was master of that house. Does that mean he's wiser than his cousellors? MAYBE, only maybe.

: : : : As for who is left, well.... Galadriel is considered the greatest of all Noldor, save PERHAPS Feanor. : : : : You seem to assume that Elrond is wiser than Galadriel...?

: : : : As for the lines of men, well, they are getting mightier, not lesser. Okai, the Numenorean men are getting intermingled, and their lives are shorter, but that's because of the Downfall. Apart from that, technology is moving ahead (such as the bigger mill). The point is, the romantic era is over. Men's dominion has begun. It's an age of knowledge, formulae, craftmanship.

: : : : There is nothing to indicate that the new doors of Minas Tirith are any weaker than the old. : : : : It seems unlikely that the lay person in Gondor would diminish. : : : : No, I believe that the future of Middle Earth lies in the dominion of men, and what they can create....

: : : : And they are moving ahead.

: : : Besides it is a well accepted fact that historical 'laws' do not exist. To say 'The USA does not trade with communist countries' does not imply , nor can it, that they never will. Even if we accept that the feats of the T.A did not match the second, you cannot infer that the feats of the Fourth would be equally less impressive - nor indeed the knowledge and skill fade further, they could reverse at a moments notice given the right conditions. 'The wisest elf of the Third Age' - in who's opinion, does Tolkein give I.Q scores for every elf? No. Celeborn is in fact referred to by Galadriel as the wisest elf, but this is disproved instantly when he rages against dwarves over the Balrog. Gil Galad was king by birthright, not by ability, although he was an impressive elf in all respects. : : : The gates of Minas Tirith are an improvement on the old gates for a start. Narsil could well be a worse sword than Anduril, who knows? : : : Don Quixote

: : This is where we need to draw on Tolkien's personal beliefs. He was a romantic. To Tolkien, kingship and nobility were deserved. The best were ranked accordingly. Bloodlines were also very important in Middle Earth. So, being king by birth meant a lot more in Middle Earth than it does in our world.

: : Elrond was the person who attracted the questions at the council. There was no Council of Celeborn, or Council of Cirdan. In fact, Cirdan sent a delegate to the council. In fact, Denethor speaks of Elrond as "greatest of lore-masters."

: : Again, I'll repeat that one must not only take into account textual evidence, but contextual evidence as well. The decline of civilization is one of Tolkien's themes, and needs to be treated on equal footing with textual evidence and any rules from our experience that we choose to impose on Middle Earth.

: : -Olorin

: But you must agree that you're infering too much, far too much. : The original premise was that although the elves were fading, and yearning for the West, that was because it was Illuvetar's design. It was ordained that Middle Earth was to be a realm of Men.

: Thus there is no reason for the Men to dwindle, as the Elves did from weariness. As for wisdom of the ages, how much do we know of the characters?? I would seem logical that Galadriel, counted among the greatest EVER among Noldor, and Celeborn, Father in Law of Elrond, would be far more wise than he. Yet is it so? I don't know! Your idea of wisdom, and power, are ideals, able to be measured. I don't think it's like that. You cannot just pit two characters in a cage fight, and whoever walks away intact is deemed more powerful.

: I don't think that your ideas and ideals about Cirdan and Celeborn's inferiority is held by the evidence. In fact, I would say that one main reason for Elrond being the Lore Master, is a lack of really thinking deeply about his universe. Remember, Tolkien didn't know much about his Universe when he first drafted the books. He had no clear idea of how everything was to fall out. Therefor, I think that many things shouldn't logically have happened.

: One thing that logic does seem to point at, is that civilisations, and populations improve with age. They improve to a saturation point, but I doubt if Men have reached that point by the 4th age. I think that they had a LOT of improving to do. : I am SURE that in the 4th age, there would have been feats to match those of earlier ages. Romaticism is all very good, BUT, it is highly illogical much of the time.

: I am afraid that in order for Midle Earth to be believable, it has to have some reality in it. And although the dwindling of culture may be a romantic throw back to Gothic like cynicsm, I don't think that it would make anyone think Middle Earth to be more realistic.

: Gandalf

What you are doing is making Tolkien's world conform to your idea of logic. Why? And, it is your idea of logic. The dwindling of civilization makes perfect sense to me, so don't go assuming that, because you think something is not logical, that it must not be logical.

As the Elder race dies off and leaves, it is replaced by Man. This is a classic case of quantity over quality. Man is dominant not because Man is better on an individual basis than Elves, but because there are so damn many men. There's a reason that ants are the most dominant species of animal on the planet.

Next, I would agree that civilization does not HAVE to go downhill. Events like Aragorn's coronation, in which true Kingship is practiced, can halt the downhill trend and reverse it. But, man is capable of a different kind of greatness than Elves. Elves were masters of magic. Men are masters of technology.

:You cannot just pit two characters in a cage fight, and whoever walks away intact is deemed more powerful.

Definitely not. After all, Beren captured a Silmaril from Morgoth. But, Morgoth was yet the more powerful, still. On the other hand, Feanor was the leader of the Elves because of the power in him. Manwe was the leader of the Valar because of the power in him. Elendil was the leader of the Numenorians in the battle against Sauron because he was the greatest of them. Aragorn was the greatest man, so he was to rule.

In a battle of armies from Denethor's Gondor and from Westernesse, if the armeis were of equal size, Westernesse would have conquered. Likewise, An army of equal size from Gondolin would always defeat one from third age Mirkwood.

-Olorin