The White Council

Re: The Three.... again

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: Will on Earth is your capacity for motivation, will on ME is just that, but in ME the great smiths could invest their spirit (or so I beleive) into their works. That is one of the aspects of Tolkeins works that side it to 'Fantacy'.

: >> your posting here Umm, where do you get this information from? Where does it say that propensity to work, desire to create, and motivation to get off your(not a personal attack, I mean fat butts in general!!) fat butt = magic?

: What he wasn't motivated to do was to make new rings... Firstly it takes time to forge a ring, and secondly, he did not want to invest any of his power into making new rings, if he could overtake one in existance. : I can agree that he could make rings of power, but he had his reasons not to. If he had invested his power into a new ring, he would not have had that power to use at his disgression when someday he may even need it more.

: >> your posting here Besides the point. The point is that it CAN be done.

: Who is going to see the world in sorrow from Valinor?

: >> your posting here Why do you think they fled Valinor in the first place? Not all were with Feanor's people. Many wanted to see the wild, wide, untamed lands. They will not want to leave for Valinor till Middle Earth will not have them any longer. These are the ones who will see the world in sorrow from Valinor

: My points all along have been implying that I agree with the possibility of new rings being forged.

: >> your posting here That's my point also. That's the basis of my belief that the inheret way the rings work still exist, so the Three shouldn't have faded

: You said he was a "Great elven smith".

: >> your posting here No, you missread me. I said that he was ranked among the greats of the Third Age. If you read back, you challenged me to name some great ppl in the Third Age, who may have been able to ressurect the ringlore. Well, that's what I did. I did NOT at any stage say that he was an Elf of any kind.

: My apologies, my point was misleading... to rephrase it: The power of Sauron in the One ring infected the power of the three and bypassed it to infect the wearer... This was intended by Sauron until the One was lost, and he could not direct it to do so. : They fell with the One because the power was flowing with the one in a constant stream, each bit of power drained was replaced, running on a cycle. The One was destroyed so the flow was not replaced and the power quickly drained out. (I am going to put this in every possible sence until you truly understand what I am saying)

: >> your posting here Ahhh, this is the crux of the disagreement. I do not think that Sauron's ring "infected" anything. It was merely a ring of power which bound the other rings, and controlled them. It never said that the lesser rings were "infected" with lasting malice in any way. It was merely a case of being controlled, when Sauron was aware of their prescence. Thus, when the One died, the Three should have become free. As for the cyclical power thing, that is your own opinion of how the rings worked. I don't think that's backed up anywhere, so therefore is hardly "proof" that the rings would have died.

: The big donut was connected to the other donuts by means that only Tolkein and Sauron knew of. One goes down, and everything tied to it goes down with it... Active or not.

: >> your posting here Ahh, that's where the "Because he SAID so" argument kicks in. Which isn't an argument at all really. Sure, we should take what Tolkien says as the truth, BUT, that's why we challenge inconsistancies. Where things don't make sense, we have to question whether things really would have occured as he said they did. You cannot just argue "He said so", because inconsistancies DO occure. This may (and I stress the MAY), be one of them.

: Saurons power in the One was not lead by Sauron himself... IOW, Sauron's plan was only with himself, and the power of his in the One was the means which he intended to infest the others with... When he lost the One, the power of himself in it acted on the three and intertwined them. The power could not, however act on the initial plan without Saurons personal dictation. Thus when the three were used the One could not infect the users, nor did it drain the power. The power was, however, channeled, and replaced on a regular cycle (the channeled/replaced point is just to help you understand my theory)

: >> your posting here I have no idea what you're warbling about. Again, you're using the cycle thingy, which makes little sense to me. Please state what page and book this idea originated. I think it's extrapolating Tolkien just a LITTLE too far.

: He never followed up in his master plan on the three, but the making of the one, and his investment into it was able to intertwine them. He never had the ultimate power over the three, as he did the nine.

: >> your posting here Yeah, and that's why his power never really took the Three over! There wasn't one instant that Sauron controlled either the Three, or their wielders. Therefore, that's yet ANOTHER indication that the One's domination wasn't very complete, and ANOTHE indication that the Three should have survived

: The Compaq had to have taken over the power supply because the three IBM's could not be plugged in without the Compaq taking over them (the Compaq at this point had infested the 'once clean' power supply), whether on the network or not.

: >> your posting here Erm, that makes NO sense. The power socket remains there, untainted! When the Compaq is thrown, the Three can be plugged safely into the wall with no problems. Take a look at Aelmer's description/analogy of the Newtonian machines. Under that analogy, you're saying that Newton's One machine tainted gravity! LOL! Yeah, right.

Again, thanks for the format, i guess it's kinda neater Sorry if my posts are a bit hazy this time, I'm under a bit of pressure at Uni, and I have a bug.

Gandalf