The White Council

Re: Was Gondor all it was cracked up to be?

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

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:The great gate of Minas Tirith was knocked down after 2 blows from a battering ram.

By a baterring ram that had been forged just for that purpose. My texts are all in transit and my mind fails me, but the ram was so great that it had been named. I don't recall any other ram ever having been named in history (which doesn't make it fact). That to me stands to be a very impressive ram.

Sauron was a fool if he felt any great threat from Gondor. Except for Farimir the gondorians had to have an Outsider captain them. If Rohan hadn't shown up and saved the day then Gondor would have been toast.

Remember that it wasn't just the arrival of Thre Rohirrim that saved the day, also Aragorn arrived with the Black Ships. And it wasn't necessarily through a feat of arms that the Battle of Pelenor Feilds was won, the enemy was routed, they turned and fled, which can cause a greater enemy to lose a battle (as when Cleopatra took her flag ship out of battle and Marc Antony followed, what had been a great battle turned into a giant disaster for Cleo and Marc). Think about being a minion of Mordor, fighting against Gondor, thinking everything is just peachy as you cut down men left and right, and they you hear horns, confusion fills you mind as you whirl to see horses and men swinging sword, smashing into your flank. It doesn't matter if it is five hundred or five thousand, with the confusion of battle, all you would see is reinforcements arriving, and with the audacity that they would attack your flank, certainly they must number significantly. Fear becomes a big motivator, and you would probably run for your life. The rout was halted, but Aragorn's arrival finished the battle.

:Speaking of Rohan I think that they were the great ones. With around 5,000 men total and with no real fortress they withstood at least 15,000 orcs, men, wolves, etc. and destroyed them all.

Three points on this, first Helm's Deep was a great fortress. Which is why Gandalf counciled Theoden to make for it. Helm's Deep had never fallen while men held it.

Second, a 3 to 1 defense is what most of my ancient military strategy books say is highly conceiveable (actually, they state that even 5 to 1 is conceiveable in a seige, butyou have to be pretty good).

Finally, the Rohirrim didn't destroy the army. Treebeard's Hurons did that. Not to make light of the valor of the Battle of Helm's Deep, but the Rohirrim simply defended the fortress. Things looked bleak, but in theory they could have held out for a long time.

I am not certain about the rest, Gondor never sending aid to Rohan, but I do believe they did on several occasions. I can't quote from text right now, but I believe the conception is mostly that Rohan needed very little aid over the years.

Thanks for your kind attention.

-RobRoy