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Re: Rank and stature among the ainur.

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  Posted by Daeron on April 12, 2000 at 12:44:06
In Reply to: Re: Rank and stature among the ainur. posted by Padster on April 10, 2000 at 10:09:48:



: : In some threads there have been debates on whether there is a hiearchy among the maiar. Tolkien does mention such a hiearchy on a few occasions. : : In Unfinished Tales he writes that Radagast is of lesser power than Saruman and Gandalf. He also writes that Saruman had a higher 'valinorean stature' than Gandalf. : : In a remarkable passage in one of his letters, Tolkien stresses that Sauron "is of the same angelic order (maiar) as Gandalf and Saruman, but of a FAR HIGHER stature".

: : -Frode

: What are we getting at here?

: Rank certainly does not necessarily determine power or stature. I can't remember what that quote about Sauron being of a far higher 'X' said exactly, but I certainly remember it to mean that Sauron was far more powerful than either Saruman or Gandalf.

: I wouldn't say that if you've got the rank then you've got the power, but there is that kind of a trend among the Maiar, but I don't think that it carried with it any political superiority. The Maiar being all round good guys just accepted the 'ranking' that they seemed to naturally fall into, and I don't think that they either would order or allow themselves to be ordered by any being other than a Valar.

: That phrase about Sauron being of '... a FAR HIGHER stature' (are you sure it was 'stature' that was used? I only ask cause I can't remember for sure) it, I believe, an absolutely KEY phrase to show that Sauron was a very grave threat to Arda. Yeah OK, so if the Valar came against him then he's toast, but then so would the rest of Middle-earth be.

: I don't think the Valar could have sent Eonwe over to kick Sauron, cause I don't think Eonwe COULD kick Sauron. To my mind Sauron HAD to be one of the top few Maiar. And that would have made him far too tough to be stuffed by any one individual (short of a Valar). Another reason to send FIVE other maiar to build the support against Sauron rather than send in some top dog to stick it to Sauron direct.

: Cheers

: : Padster

:I think Padster is a bitch.


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