The White Council

Re: Was Gondor all it was cracked up to be?

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : : Ok, through out all of the LOTR Tolkien describes how important and great Gondor was. Was this true? The answer is NO. In the 2nd age Gondor was great but that was because of the Numenor influence. During the 3rd age Gondor's power was waning if not completely gone. Gondor did not have anywhere near a big enough army to be a match for a 1/4 of the strength of Mordor. Tolkien says how Gondor was the only place holding back Sauron but after preparing for years for war, it was beseiged for less than 10 days and it's army was in dissarray. Tolkien states that except for a valiant few the "mighty" Gonodrians were cowering in the shadows.(Tolkien doesn't say exactly that) Except for the fighting at Osgiliath the Gondorians did nothing to fight back the hosts of Mordor. The great gate of Minas Tirith was knocked down after 2 blows from a battering ram. Sauron was a fool if he felt any great threat from Gondor. Except for Farimir the gondorians had to have an Outsider captain them. If Rohan hadn't shown up and saved the day then Gondor would have been toast. Speaking of Rohan I think that they were the great ones. With around 5,000 men total and with no real fortress they withstood at least 15,000 orcs, men, wolves, etc. and destroyed them all. This saved Gondor from attack from behind. Then less than 4 days after this feat they muster the men and make the greatest ride to save Gondor's butt(for the second time) since Eorl The Young. Theoden himself wipes out about a company of Southrons. Eowyn and Merry kill The Captain of the Nazgul. While the Gondorians cowered in fear of The Nazgul. Rohan always is saving Gondor. Did Gondor ever come to the aid of Rohan? Not really. Instead Gondor gave Orthnac to Saruman and stopped watching Mordor and the Anduin. The point I'm trying to make is that Gondor wasn't that great and had Sauron issued a bigger host then Gondor would have been destroyed. Rohan on the other hand is played down as not being that great yet they continually save the day and fight on two fronts hundreds of leauges apart. So you decide: Was Gondor really that much of a power in Middle-Earth?

: : : -Mornhun

: : The reply that flies to mind when reading this post is not suitable for a polite board. -----deleted by myself for politeness----. No, no I must moderate myself. : : Read anew the books, the appendixes, the Silmarillion, the UT and the History of Middle Earth, study some of our own ancient and medieval history, especially military history. Then, provided that you still think Gondor was nothing, try again. : : There be also many posts in the archives on subjects related to the relative strength and weaknesses of the opponents in the War of The Ring. : : I think I moderated myself enough that it will not be labeled as a flame. I do not try to denigate you, I just ----again deleted by myself----the dashing and heroic Rohir appeals to you because of this lack of experience. : : NT

: : I am not saying that Gondor was nothing. Indeed in the second and early third ages Gondor rivaled Numenor in its power and splendour. However by the time that this battle occurred it was not as great as Tolkien made it sound. I am not saying that Gondor would not or did not put up a fight. Tolkien said that the force issued against Gondor wasn't one of the greatest hosts at Sauron's disposal. This force was more to test Gondor's strength and weakness. Think what would have happened if two or three different hosts were sent to attack Gondor. It would have been captured in less than a week. You said to read the appendixes and stuff like that to get a better history of Gondor. Well I've read everything I can find on Middle-Earth so I know the history of GOndor. But you can't live in the past. When Elendil was king Gondor was very great but by the time of Denethor's Stewardship the power of Gondor had waned. Beregrond says that the mighty arm of Gondor had been weakened. Someone said that the army that marched on Mordor was less than the number of the vanguard of Gondor in it's power. I didn't think Rohan was so great because of inexperience, rather I think they are one of the most powerful : forces against Sauron at the time of the battle because they had actually grown somewhat in strength and valor. Rohan was more war-loving than Gondor because Gondor also cared about other things than war while Rohan for the most part was totally involved in war. If you at the past then Gondor is by far the best but if you look at present then Rohan would be the best in War. Gondor's arm was shortened but Rohan's grew.

: -Mornhun

If Gondor was so weak, why didn't Sauron overrun it in T.A 2951 when he declared himself? Couldn't be because Gondor was too strong??????????????? Don Q