The White Council

I think we win....

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : : This is all very much conjecture, but if I may use an anology from the computer world, do you suppose that included in the information given to Celebrimbor by Sauron that there might have been some sort of Trojan Horse software? I mean the elves could in theory have made rings independent of Sauron that would not have made them liable to control or exposure by Sauron. However, since they lacked the necessary knowledge to do so, they had to depend on what Sauron gave them. Clearly he found it to his advantage to trick them by giving them rigged software. : : : : On a related note: have you ever noticed how Tolkien seems to have had an inchoate dislike of technology in general? While admiring some of the things that the dwarves and elven smiths had done over the years, he plainly felt that they had been too clever for their own good. Just a thought.

: : : yes, he was a luddite through and through (good for him too) : : : Re the rings - this debate has been going on for 2 weeks or more now, you have Gandalf and myself arguing that : : : 1) The three should not have failed when the one was destroyed and : : : 2) The capacity to make new rings still existed into the fourth age : : : and then most of the rest of the world saying no no no : : : I think the trouble here is that Tolkein did not himself know how he would get away with this, and did not bother to try explaining it - it is after all, only a story. It just seems that it would be nice to get some definitive answers somewhere for this. Ref the computer analogy - perhaps, but I think the Elves were just too clever for all that, I can't see them making something they know nothing about and haven't researched thoroughly : : : Don Q

: : Thanks to the Don for making this so clear. : : I think that is a masterful summation of what has gone on in the last two weeks, and I for one (and I believe Dave too) still hold firm that Tolkien had ano plausible idea why the Three would cease to function, and never really addressed the issue. : : Using the computer analogy, we seem to get nowhere. : : Take the above example of software with a Trojan Horse for example. Supposing that the Three had dodgy software, which let Hacker Sauron get into them, and control them. Suddenly, the Hacker Software that Sauron was using gets destroyed, forever. Wouldn't the software of the Three become free again? Try the computer analogy. Sauron is a hacker, that has taken over the elven machines. Suddenly, Sauron goes offline forever, because his master machine has blown up, the Three "slave" machines will become free again, and operate on their normal basis.

: : Aside from that particular argument, I agree with the Don's premis that the elves would have considered the ring-lore first, before putting it into practice. Remember, Celebrimbor did not trust Sauron, even though the other smiths did. Would Celebrimbor have made something, which he knew little about, and the knowledge of which was sourced with Sauron? I doubt it. I think Celebrimbor would have considered it wholly before making the Three.

: : Gandalf

: Bravo!! Thats it precisely : Don Q

I think with our impeccable logic, brutal tenacity, and the fact that we're right ;) we've scared everyone else off. It's a pity that Maedrhos went on holiday, because I'm sure he would have picked up the gauntlet. Ahhh well, looks like this discussion is over.

Gandalf