The White Council

No Problem!

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : snip

: : : : Yes, I will concede then that there is SOME paralell between Eru and the Christian God, but I also believe in Paralells between Eru (and middle earth) and Other Gods (and other views/religions) which takes me back to it being a mix of creeds represented in the works.

: : : Granted, as always, that was never in question.

: : : : However your point about Gandalf does not ring true with me. Gandalf does 'sacrifice' his life yes in the sense that he dies fighting a bad guy and letting the others get away. There is no indication in the text of this being anything other than a battle - it is too big a leap to equate this to the Christ figure dying by his own Father's will to save all humanity's SOULS (I capitalise there specifically because I feel this is the difference) Gandalf is not Eru's son, and as for him coming back from the dead - well Lazarus did, and he isn't a christ figure. Gandalf is an immortal spirit, not a 'man' as Christ was.

: : : Well, a couple of things on this Gandalf as a Christ-figure argument, then I will let it fall to the dust. It is very easy to poke holes in the "Gandalf as a Christ Figure" theory (as it is with any literary figure as a Christ-figure). Yes, he was an immortal spirit and Christ was a man (though his spirit was always immortal, but that's a different argument). Yes, Gandalf did not die as part of Eru's plan as Christ died as part of God's plan. But every point about Gandalf (or any literary character) does not have to instantly equate back in order for the device to stand. "Red Badge of Courage" has a very obvious Christ figure, and yet he is not the son of any kind of God/god, he does not save the souls of the world, but a majority of literary texts agree that Crane wrote the character as such. The points that Gandalf gives his life in defense of ME and his friends, and that he returns from the "dead" to finish his mission stands as a very obvious Christ-figure (figure being the operative word), otherwise the literary device as accepted by many critics and theorticians must fall (and I don't think that it does).

: : : Again, I will take you back to the original premise from which this discussion has stemmed: Do parallels exist between Eru and the Christian God? That being stated, then Gandalf is definately one of those parallels.

: : : On Lazarus, well, the old boy after being awaken from the dead kinna dropped from the whole story of Christ. Lazarus is not considered a Christ-figure because he was raised as a Lazarus-figure, to prove Christ's powers. Lazarus did not die for others, he simply died (I think he was sick). And he was not raised to continue his mission (unless his mission was being Christ's friend) he was simply raised as a point, and exclamation mark on Christ's resume.

: : : : He was like any other Maia and had the capacity for rebirth. : : : : Glorfindel is reborn from the first age, he is not a Christ fgure.

: : : But I would submit that he could have been. Though I have never stated that he was, it does draw parallel to LOTR being a Christian work, with individuals reborn to continue their works (but that's another argument, along a whole other line, and not one which I wish to debate).

: : : : Gandalf does not have disciples, his role is to fight Sauron not convert and preach. I conclude (at this stage) that there is NO correlation between Gandalf and Christ.

: : : Of course Gandalf doesn't preach and convert (though that argument can also be made, e.g. rousing Theoden from his hall), as there is no worship in ME (for worship see my previous post's definition) and thus no need to convert. Christ's role was to fight sin (i.e. Satan) and to free mortals from perpetual death, to open the kingdom of heaven and grant redemption to humanity, (he also did a little teaching on the side, and played bass in a local Jerusalem Band), but his main goals were to leave the world better then when he found it as part of God's plan. Gandalf was sent to fight Sauron, to save ME from his "evil" grasp and free the peoples of ME from his domination. Not a bad correlation there.

: : : There may not be a line for line, number for number corellation, but I don't think you can say, for certain, that there is NO correlation between Christ and Gandalf. If we had to have a definate correllation between every Christ-figure, then there would be none, because it would be so blatantly obvious that the devise as a literary tool would not work, and I think that it works very well.

: : : : I concede however that there are Christian themes in the book and some correlation between Eru and the Christian God (and the Jewish, Muslim, Roman, Norse etc etc) : : : : With regard to prayer, no there is none on the text - that doesn't mean there was no religion, just that it wasn't a theme the Prof touched on.

: : : Well, it would seem to me that if worship/religion existed in ME then Tolkien would have written about it somewhere (anywhere). As such, I haven never seen it mentioned. But if it does, would you kindly point out that error, and I will glady revise my statement.

: : : :Although Elves invoke Elbereth which is tantamount to worship.

: : : Oh, here, I have to heartily disagree. The invocation of an individual is not "tantamount to worship". People all through the ages have invoked individuals who were not idols or Gods. "For King (insert name here) and Saint Patrick" is a common enough invocation to work with, and neither of those individuals are being worshipped. As a whole, Catholics will invoke any number of saints to protect them, but that is not worship, nor is it "tantamount to worship" as Catholics do not worship saints (as exemplified through Vatican I, Vatican II and almost any papal doctrine concerning the question of worship and saints and Roman Catholicism). Invocation is (as defined by the American Heritage Dictionary) as "an appeal to a higher power for assistance." This does not mean that that assistance comes from God (though it can), but it is not proof of religion or worship.

: : : -RobRoy

: : This has been a most stimulating discussion. : : OK, I see where you are going with Gandalf - perhaps a 'loose' connection could be granted by me on that. : : Ref Religion and Prayer - Tolkein says nothing about lavatories in his books, it doesn't mean they don't exist there. Its a book, not a definitive history. And I think religious belief is essential for the balance of things in middle-earth. Thats a personal view with no evidence to back it up though. : : I am happy that we ahve agreed on some issues here - esp. that other religions as well as Christianity are represented in the books, so if you like, shall we leave it there? : : Don Q : : P.S Thanks for a very stimulating discussion