The White Council

Noted and Thanks!! (nt)

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : : : : .... romantic tragedy. It's not necessarily happy, but it's fulfilling.

: : I am reposting my text from above, because I am pretty certain I never said that it was a romantic tragedy.

: : "No happy endings? No way! Braveheart had the best happy ending of them all. Instead of bowing down the the English, the Scots rose up one more time and won their freedom. Granted, Mel and his wife were dead, Mel's and his new girlfriend never got to date again, but who cares, the theme of the movie was freedom, and in the end freedom was won. Wallace never gave up on it, eventually Robert the Bruce saw that he was right, and all of Wallace's dreams were realized. That's a pretty happy ending to me! But then I have this romantic fatalism!"

: : Yep, that's what I thought. Ok, let's define tragedy and see if Braveheart fits the bill. In my book (the American Heritage Dictionary) tragedy- A dramtic or lierary work depicting a protagonist engaged in a morally significant struggle ending in ruin.

: : Now, Braveheart, while it was headed for a potentially tragic ending, reverses course at the end (though hardly an unseen reversal) and the Scots become victorious (apart from the historical inaccuracy) from the evil Britons. I consider this a happy ending, Mel's character did not suffer and die in vein, instead he instigated his people (again, apart from historical inaccuracy) to conquer and accomplish what he had set out to do. That's not a tragedy.

: : Hamlet, on the other hand, is a tragedy. Prince Hamlet sets out to revenge his father, save his mother and his throne from his Uncle and, at some point (there is considerable debate on this issue) marry his true love. In the end the only thing he accomplishes is the death of his Uncle, the loss of his throne, his love is dead (extreme depression resulting in suicide), his mother is dead (poisoned by his Uncle), he has killed his parent's oldest and trusted advisor (and his would-be father-in-law) and killed several friends, two of whom he had beheaded (in his place) because he thought they were untrustworthy.

: : So, no I did not make your point. I stand by my original statement that Braveheart does not end unhappily, which is in opposition to your original statment, that it does.

: : -RobRoy

: One point - they did not defeat the Britoms - that race was exterminated or fled in the middle ages (Anglo-Saxon invasions) : It was the English (Anglo-Saxon/Normans) that Wallace and Bruce defeated (temporarily)