The White Council

Re: Into the fire

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : Hi all,

: : : New here but I wanted to just comment on a few things regarding the Elf-Dwarf subject. Touchy subject apparently from what I have read but a good debate none the less.

: : : From my twenty years of reading Tolkiens works I have to say I have never even thought to question the fact that there was anything but emnity between Dwarves and Elves. It is highlighted so many times in Tolkiens works. Not so much in The Sil when nobody really trusted anybody but getting into The Hobbit and LOTR was where it is very apparent.

: : : There are so many points to choose from. Gandalf's comments about "All of the problems of Elves and Dwarves", Treebeard's obvious suprise at the relationship between Gimli and Legolas, Thranduil's treatment of Thorin and company where there was definate sign's in his comments of a racial nature against the Dwarves, Gimli at first being the only one the Elves wanted to blindfold in Lorien. I also remember a comment by Haldir when they were finally released about all could walk freely, EVEN the dwarf.

: : : Saying that I believe a lot of this was similar to what we get today where for example, a white person may be distrustful of a black person even though they may have never met one and visa versa. Its all about education even in stories such as this. A lot of this trouble was probably down to the way Elves and Dwarves heard stories of old and how not to trust a dwarf or elf and so on and on.

: : : My one main reason for feeling this though is the way the Gimli-Legolas relationship is portrayed. The book gives a strong impression that the relationship is unusual. I think ultimatly the relationship is also one of triumph which shows that the two races can be friendly towards each other.

: : : Anyway's, well met all.

: : Exactly. No matter what anyone says, the books clearly give you that impression. My first exposure to elves and dwarves as a child was from the Hobbit, so I had no preconceived ideas either... : : The elves clearly thought themselves superior, Thingol's fatal comments are evidence of that. end of subject.

: : :

: Not end of subject at all. : There is a distinct difference between emnity and mistrust/misunderstanding. If there was emnity between the elves and dwarves, Gimli wouldn't have got into Lorien at all. The elf who tried to blindfold him was a border ranger, not responsible for foreign policy and prob with very little understanding of anything outside his little world. : If there was such emnity, what about the flourishing trade between Moria and Eregion?? : They were not enemies (there is NO evidence of that at all outside of the unfortunate Thingol incident (which he brought on himself), however that does not mean they were fast friends either or allies. : Don Q

But the fact remains that the incidents of mistrust between the Elves and Dwarves were numerous, and were certainly emphasized by Tolkien. This doesn't mean that all Elves hated all Dwarves, or that it was a "racial" thing (though I do believe Elves were capable of being racist-see Thingol's description of Beren as a "baseborn mortal" in the Lay of Leithian).

But it should be pointed out that not all white people treated black people badly in the South in the days of Reconstruction; nonetheless I think its safe to conclude animosity existed between the two groups. In Northern Ireland not every Protestant treats every Catholic badly, and vice versa; but again animosity exists between these two groups as well. My point is that just because there were "only" isolated incidents of mistrust between Elves and Dwarves, they are representative of a much broader rift between them, and cannot be explained away by the actions of a greedy king or an uninformed border guard, which by the way seems quite unlikely. Haldir was an elf of Lorien, and as such would likely have been extremely knoweldgeable about the events of the world. He was probably several centuries old, and it was wartime; he would have been on high alert.