The White Council

Re: Elves and Dwarves

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : These are both isolated cases with specific causes. Thorin : : : simply misbehaved. Gimli had done nothing wrong but Haldir : : : did not have the authority to set aside Lorien's law, and he : : : risked censure at permitting a Dwarf to enter Lorien.

: : Thorin did not initially misbehave. He was pleading for aid. : : I think that the tension between Elves and Dwarves explains the : : stubornness on the part of both Thorin and Thranduil once the : : dwarf had been taken into Thranduil's Hall. If you recall, : : both were rather bull-headed.

: Thorin trespassed. That's misbehaving. He was in the wrong to begin with. And if he had explained himself, who knows, Thranduil might have given him aid (and unwanted advice). Thranduil was a sovereign monarch protecting his people and his country. He gave Thorin an opportunity to explain himself and justfully imprisoned both Thorin and the other Dwarves. For all Thranduil knew, the Dwarves were outcasts and outlaws.

: Thranduil was extremely lenient under the circumstances.

: : : : The passage cited earlier in this thread from the : : : : Silmarillion concerning the strife between the races is : : : : noteworthy, but I think that more emphasis can be placed : : : : upon Elrond's words--spoken during the Council--about 'past : : : : grievances' between and Elf and Dwarf (as cited earlier)...

: : : Nope. Those were Gandalf's words, and the strife clearly : : : applies to both Elves and Men (and more to Men, given the : : : fact that there are more documented cases of strife between : : : Dwarves and Men).

: : I apologize for misquoting here, in fact I was just pulling it : : from the thread instead of going back to my source. But : : whether it was uttered by Elrond or Gandalf does not change the : : point made. And I do think that Gandalf's words here are : : directed specifically toward the past relationship of Elves and : : Dwarves.

: That's because Gandalf was addressing a Dwarf complaining about a problem with Elves. That in no way elevates the significance of the Dwarf-Elf problems above Elf-Man and Dwarf-Man problems.

: What would have been the point for Gandalf to discuss all the possible variants? He was clearly implying that people needed to leave their past greivances out a discussion which concerned the fate of the entire world.

: You know, Men betrayed the Elves in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, and THE SILMARILLION says the Elves never forgot that. And yet no one -- and I mean NO ONE -- ever dwells upon the clear racial emnity that Elves display towards Men.

: Why is that?

: People will go out of their way to rationalize this non-existing Elf-Dwarf stuff, but they don't make anything of the clearly documented differences between Elves and Men. The Elves had no problem with killing Men in the Second and Third Ages, but they didn't kill any Dwarves.

: That's pretty significant, don't you think?

: : : I've only ever seen this "feeling" in gamers and online fans : : : who have been sharing impressions with each other for years. : : : Maybe 1 or 2 people in my online experience have ever been : : : able to point to passages for me which could reasonably lead : : : them to believe there was a problem between the Dwarves. : : : Usually when I ask people what led them to conclude this they : : : can't give me an answer.

: : : As best I can determine, most of the people who believe there : : : were problems between the Elves and Dwarves believe so : : : because someone else said there were. When did YOU first : : : decide there were problems between Elves and Dwarves, and : : : why?

: : Well, now you can add me to the list of people who have : : expressed this "feeling," as neither a gamer or someone : : influenced by on-line discussions. In fact, my brief time on : : this board defines the totality of my on-line discourse. As : : for why I feel this way, I have explained several instances, : : and at the writing of this posting Bacchus has presented an : : even more thorough explanation. All of which I agree with. : : As for when the feeling arose: when I read The Hobbit, The : : Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion.

: And you've never discussed these books offline? My remark may seem like I'm saying everyone got their opinion online, but my point is that most people discuss the books they read with other people.

: I'm not saying anyone is a liar. I'm saying we cannot be entirely sure of where our opinions come from. Why is that no one makes a big fuss over Elf-Man relations? You don't see many Elves forming close relationships with Men in LOTR, do you? Aragorn's position is rather unique. It stands out like a sore thumb.

: There's more to this Elf-Dwarf perception than meets the eye. Simply judging by what the texts say, I concluded (eventually) that the Elves and Dwarves were usually pretty friendly. Imagine my surprise when I found a letter from Tolkien where he said they were usually hostile. The stories just don't back him up on that.

I think I am missing something, coming to this discussion late. Is the argument *that* there was a rift between Elves and Dwarves, or is it about the exact *nature* of that rift? I would certainly agree that there were similar differences between Elves and Men (or non-Edain in any case-if you recall, all of the important men in LOTR are descended from Edain, except for the Rohirrim, which have little contact with the Elves in the story), and between Men and Dwarves I suppose (though there are few that I can recall), as well as between Elves and Dwarves. But the recorded instances of this particular rift are many and Tolkien definitely seems to single it out. Thus his letters do not surprise me at all, and I certainly would not agree that the stories don't back them up. In fact I can't think of a single instance of his letters not matching the stories, which isn't surprising since they were written by the same guy.