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Re: Uruks in first age?

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  Posted by Michael Martinez on April 27, 2000 at 12:06:45
In Reply to: Re: Uruks in first age? posted by Martin Read on April 27, 2000 at 04:08:16:



: : Azog, Bolg, the Great Goblin, and other big Orcs (called : : "hobgoblins" in THE HOBBIT) were most probably Uruks, which : : Sauron unleashed in the 25th century. He also colonized the : : Misty Mountains in the 25th century, so he would have been : : able to send Uruks there.

: There are a number of inconsistencies in Tolkien's treatment of : the origins and types of orc. Not least the infamous "Old-days : comment" by the orcs of Kirith Ungol. These would appear to : have been Uruk-hai, which seem from other parts of Tolkien's : writing to have been specially bred fighting orcs, reared by : Sauron (and Saruman) so when would they have had the : opportunity to have operated independantly? Another problem : with the Uruk-hai being part of the Misty Mountain orc : communities is the very great tribalism and racial chauvinism : shown by both sides when operating together in Rohan. Bolg : succeeded Azog to the leadership of the orcs of Moria (and : further afield?) this suggests that his family had some sort of : hold over the loyalty of their subjects, which tends to argue : against them being of a distict and relatively recently : introduced foreign race.

Although many of us have wondered about Gorbag and Shagrat's discussion, the reference could be merely to the days before Sauron returned to Mordor. Remember, Mordor was reinvested by Sauron's creatures after the Great Plague, but he didn't rule there directly until the 29th century. And after the Nazgul took Minas Ithil, they may have paid less attention to Mordor as well.

But Bolg didn't succeed Azog in Moria. He ruled from Gundabad. The family may have had wide influence, or he may have been driven out in disgrace. The Orc societies may have been more complex than appears. Certainly they were capable of cooperation. The Orcs who captured Merry and Pippin came from Isengard, Mordor, and Moria. In fact, Tolkien indicates the Uruks generally took charge wherever they showed up.


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