The White Council

Re: How tough were orcs, trolls, and balrogs?

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

No this thread is becoming serious, good. : : : Elros never fought anywhere that I am aware of. He was the first king of Numenor but that doesn't make him a hero. Elendil wasn't descended from him anyway because he wasn't part of the royal family of Numenor.

: : Point of Information *puts one hand on head, other hand out in a silly fashion* Elendil was CERTAINLY of the royal line. He was a close relative of the last king. A first cousin, or something like that (I can't recall off hand exactly what degree the relationship was). This was also used to legitamise Elendil's rule of he faithful. This is why Aragorn claims kinship from afar to Elrond and Arwen.

: -What I meant was that Elendil wasn't part of the ruling line. No, you said Elendil wasn't a descendant of Elros. <: : Earendil was an elf not a man. Who cares about Elros? <: He was Aragorn's forefather. <: The point is not to say aragorn wasn't a hero. <: My point simly is he was no Elros or Turin.

Not all Elros's descendants were of the royal family, that is simple mathematics.

: : : -Just reforged them? Narsil was broken in 2 pieces so there had to be parts of it missing! That takes skill to rebuild a sword.

: : Granted, but I think Anduril's power wasn't in it's physicality. It's powers were inherited from Narsil. : : It is harder to create, than to re-create.

: : I also believe (IMHO incase anyone is offended), that Arwen could NOT face Sauron alone. Take note that Luthien beat Sauron (at his TRUE height of power, i.e when he still had the power of Melkor to fall back on). No elf in the third age could have stormed the dark tower, and a battallion of elven lords such as Glorfindel could not open a way to the fire. However, I think that if an army of warriors such as Fingolfin, Feanor, Fingon, Turgon, Finrod, Hurin and Turin could most likely make it to the fire. After all, most of the characters I named above could give Sauron a run for his money. The Nazgul would have been swept aside like hot knife through butter.

: -Feanor and Fingolfin might/probably have been able to do so but Turgon wasn't noted as an excellent warrior. Finrod I am not too sure about he probably was a little below Feanor and Felagund. Hurin and Turin could have defeated The Nazgul but I doubt that they could have fought Sauron and triumphed. After all Elendil, Gil-Galad, and Isildur barely defeated them and two were killed. Besides Hurin and Turin were men not elves.

: : : Read Michael Martinez's comments on Earendil as a bowman. There is a big difference between a bow warrior and a sword warrior.

: : I actually agree that Bard killed Smaug by luck, At Least Partly! Note caps! I think that it is fairly implied, that the task was due largely to the merit of the Black Arrow, and that it was by virtue of this artifact, that Smaug was slain. This is why the task wasn't as impressive as the slaying of say Scatha, or Glauurung.

: -Tolkien makes a point of saying that Bard is a good archer though. The Black Arrow had served him well but I think that it was where the arrow went that counts. Of course the task didn't seem as impressive. If you shoot and kill a dragon it doesn't sound as good as when you stab and kill one.

Oh he sure was a relatively good archer. But let's say he had to kill a Smaug type dragon three times in different years. Could he have done that? I think he was very lucky to kill smaug and though it needed some skill, he couldn't have repeated it. That is called luck.

: : : : My comment was a bit of an overstatement on Cirdans and Elronds part. After all Elrond was Gil Galads herald in the last alliace. : : : : But I don't think they were Fingons

: : I don't know for a fact, but I suspect that Elrond may have been made a herald, because royal blood runs in him. After all, he is the son of Earendil, and the blood of Luthien and Melian runs in him. I agree also, that they were not the physical match of greats, such as Fingon.

: Cirdan most certaintly was not Fingons match but I think you take Elrond too lightly. He was the son of Earendil who sailed to Valar and slew Ancaglon. As you mentioned Luthien and Beren were part of his lineage. In addition he was part Maia. That makes me think that he was pretty dangerous.

That might make him wise. As with radagast his skill was not primarily in fighting. But he probaly was a decent swordsman. Fingon was probably among the three best swordsmen Noldor ever had.

: : : He didn't need help the other one took it upon himself to help. I'm not saying that Gothmog might not have lost. I think he might have or at least be sorely wounded.

: : Ahh, but you see, in the narration, it was fairly clear that Fingon was holding his own. This elf was holding his own, in an one to one fight against one of the fiercest fighters Middle Earth had ever know. He was holding his own against "The greatest of elf banes, save the dark one"

: He was holding his own yes, and I said that he probably could have won but think back to the other stories of Balrogs dying.....they all died by some other means. Like falling or drownding.

: : : Borimir wasn't a son of a king. Turin was. Argaron might have been able to handle him. Besides a few conflicts here and there are all we know about Borimir. But he did win back Osgiliath from the Nazgul with only a few men. Aragorn was not even Elendil's match, that is quite clearly implicated in the LotR. That means he was Turin's match even less. At least Aragorn was no match for Turin's father, who was said to be the best fighter of Adain in all times. I rate Turin (in fighting) at almost if not the same level as Hurin. You might not.

: : I don't think that just being the son of a king qualifies you for much, except buck teeth, and serious inbreeding.

: Maybe not but all of the Kings or their sons were great warriors.

That is one thing I don't specially like in Tolkien, but true that they were, at least those we are told of, with the possible exception of Thingol.

: : I hope I haven't been too forthright, but my viewpoint is simply that one of Tolkien's themes, was the decline of the elves. Each successive generation got weaker, as the sun aged. : : I do not think that any Elven characters in the Third age could have stood a chance in single combat with Sauron. However, it seems that several First age characters would probably have fought him toe to toe.

: : Gandalf

: I have to disagree. Yes Tolkien had that theme. But, and an very important but if you read Unfinished Tales they say that Galadriel was equal to if not stronger than Feanor.

Not in kicking people's arse. And we don't know if she waned in those years, although I doubt it. She had the ring and her wisdom at least didn't wane, and that was her strenght. But she was never his equal in defeating other creatures. ( Feanor's role in this is quite short: kinslaying+ the first battle of Beleriand

:See my note concerning Elrond above. Glorfindel had already fought and destroyed one Maia.

He was never Fingolfin and his strenght might have waned in ME. But I agree he was one of the better fighters of TA.