The White Council

Re: How tough were orcs, trolls, and balrogs?

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : : : : : : : : Actually, we have debated this before. There is no evidence that supports that First Agers were in any way stronger then Third Agers.

: : : : : -Best fighters of Edain: Turin, Hurin.

: : : Specifically stated in the Silm : : : : : -Best fighter of Elves: Fingolfin

: : : as is this

: : : : : -Greatest, in many ways, of Eldar: Feänor

: : : as is this

: : : : : -70 trolls and Aragorn: give me a break : : : : : -Why didn't Gandalf buy a sword from a market in Osgiliath : : : : : -why didn't the warrior princess go and sing sauron to sleep as Luthien did to Morgoth : : : : : -Smaug as a Terror to the army of valar : : : : : -9 Balrogs searching for the ring : : : : : -Gothmog (the balrog) at minas Tirith's gate and Gandalf riding to meeet him and not the WG : : : : : -Our white rider is a match to their 9 riders (oops winged flyers)

: : : : : Maybe the men in general hadn't dwindled (except the Dunedain since the second age) but their heroes had. : : : : : The elves had lost their "strenght" in general as is said : : : : : quite clearly in both the Silm and LotR. After few ages they would have become mere shadows of their former self. And their heroes were surely no match to the first agers.

: : : : Nowhere does it say that Elves lost strength over the ages. Elrond and Galadriel are examples of this. If you don't call Argaron, Eomer, Boromir, Faramir, Theoden, and others like them heroes then you are messed up.

: : : They diminished, it is said many times in the Silm And in the LotR. I can't give you a page number as I don't have the books with me. It was even said that after a time they would become like shadows ( don't remember the exact word and it surely didn't mean wraiths). I think this was in the prophesy of Mandos. Could somebody plese post a reference to what I am saying? I am sure it is in there. Elrond and galadriel didn't lose their wisdom, but I doubt they could have challenged Gothmog. The persons you mentioned are heroes. But 20 orcs is no 70 trolls.

: : : : -Best of Elves TA Galadriel who rivaled with Feanor for being the best : : : : : : In wisdom, This wasn't about wisdom. She was also there in the first age. And anyway that referred to her in aman and firs age, : : : that doesn't prove she didn't lessen in power as the time went by.

: : -SHe would have got better because she had The Ring of Adamnat(sp?)

: : : : -Best of Men TA Borimir killed many orcs. Faramir could withstand the Terror of The Nazgul and rally his men. Eowyn helped kill the Witch King

: : : Few orcs, I am impressed. WG is no balrog that is quite eviden't : : : as the third agers encountered a balrog.

: : -More than a "few" orcs. The Witch King was very powerful though. : : Besides he had a Ring of Power

: He didn't have it, Sauron kept them all. : And what did I say about 9 balrogs compared to nine Nazguls?

: : : : -Argaron who was said to be the most like Elendil who defeated Sauron who was one of the greatest Maia. : : : Not alone did he? And what is better evidence to my point than what you just stated: It is something if you come even close to your ancestors.

: : -He was more than "close" to Elendil. Besides that means he was closer to Elendil than Isildur.

: He lived 200 years: Elros lived 500. He did't kill Sauron. : He was no Eärendil, no Beren, No Tuor.

: : : : -I dont know what you mean about Gandalf

: : : He used a first age sword and didn't just by it from a blacsmith in gondor or get it from rivendel's smiths.

: : -He used that sword because he found it in the troll's cave. He didn't know it was a FA sword at first. : He had 2000 years to buy a sword

: :Narsil was reforged at Rivendell. : Reforged! hey couldn't make themselves as good swords as Feänor or Eol. : : : : -The Warrior Princess was a woman not an elf if you mean Eowyn and if you mean Arwen then you are mistaken because she wasn't a warrior

: : : That was a reference to what someones are saying Arwen's role : : : will be in the films. She was Luthiens equivalent in third age. : : : And look what she did compared to her. Or what she could have done.

: : -We are talking about the book NOT the movie. : I know don't you understand humour? : : So she didn't challenge Sauron? That doesn't mean she couldn't have. Luthien only did it for Beren's sake.

: ou really think she could have?

: : : : -Smaug was defeated by ONE man whereas in the FA dwarves couldn't defeat dragons and elves ran in terror

: : : So was Ancalon and Glaurung. And bards deed was, if you read the : : : book with even your one eye open, mostly if not purely luck. : : : Smaug was no Ancalon and I don't think even you will say that : : : Bard was a warrior of Turins or Eärendils proportions. : : : In fact Tolkien says clearly he wasn't.

: : -I didn't say Bard was thier equivalent. It wasn't luck that he killed the dragon. He knew where the arrow had to go and he put it there. That is what is called SKILL!!!

: That is what is called beginners luck. : Again, do you really think the peasant Bard was as good a marksman as Eärendil?

: : : : -The Balrogs were for the most part destroyed by the might of the Valar

: : : Some were. But FA elves killed balrogs, how many TA elves could have done that?

: : -I think that Glorifindel, Galadriel, Elrond, and Cirdan could have.

: 3 of them couldn't even kill an orc. Glorofindel might have been able though I doubt it, anyway Gothmog would have been beyond his prowess.

: : : : -Ecthelion and Glorifindel destroyed a Balrog. Gandalf had already destroyed one and this was when he was weak and not Gandalf the White

: : : Don't get you. Both of them killed a different Balrog. : : : Gandalf wasn't an elf but a Maia and I don't claim the Maiar : : : diminished. Give me TA elf who could have stood against Gothmog : : : like Fingon did, not just against Moria's balrog who was just : : : an "ordinary" balrog and hadn't exercised for millenia :)

: : -Fingon was killed. : That needed a second balrog. : : :Moria's balrog wasn't necessarily just a Balrog. It depends if you belive some Maiar were better than others. I won't go into that.

: Then don't. Gothmog was the third after Morgoth and Sauron in rank. It is obvious some maiar were better in defeating others than some others (I don't want to go to their value or worth or rank either) : It is said that Eonwe was the best fighter and olorin was the wisest. Don't you believe that in their fana at the time Sauron : was not more "powerful" than Radagast or moria's balrog. That is the question. Or that Gothmog was not more dangerous to face as an opponent than radagast? Remember the story about moon and sun.

: : : : -Wraiths sent from a Maia are no match for a Maia sent from The Valar

: : : I meant: was gandalf a match for 9 winged balrogs.

: : -I don't think 9 balrogs would have been ruled by One Maia.

: That is hardly the point. the point is that the primary foes of third age Sauron and Nazguls and Smaug were less dangerous than : Morgoth, Sauron, the balrogs and Ancalon. As you said yourself : Balrogs were a bit more powerful than their third age equivalents: the Nazguls. Imagine that 9 not 1 balrogs has awakened in Moria.

I think you should consider that by the Third Age, the exploits of the heroes in the First Age would have been considered legendary. Every nation has legends about superhuman warriors who succeed in killing monsters and hordes of enemies, and who don't seem to know what fear is. Yet, I think it would be hard to argue that people today are somehow less courageous than they were hundreds of years ago. In their different ways, fighting in the Battle of Britain would have required as much skill and courage as Beowulf killing Grendel.

Sean