The White Council

Re: How tough were orcs, trolls, and balrogs?

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : : It says right in the LoTR that Vilya was the mightiest of the three. It also says somewhere that the three elven rings where stronger than all but the one because they had been untouched by Sauron (I think it was in the UT).

: : : In power, it had great merits. But in aiding it's holder in combat, it had no virtues. For the purposes of this argument, Vilya's powers were pretty insignificant.

: : What powers did the One Ring, or any of the others, have to aid their weilders in combat?

: : : : : : That was his plan before the White Council drove him out of the Mirkwood. It says it right in the UT. He could not because he was driven out by the White Council.

: : : Sauron's plan was to flee all along. He had forseen the stroke of the White Council, and had pretended to flee before them. He didn't plan to attack from Dul Guldor. In fact, if byt eh War of the Ring Sauron's military was greater than Morgoths' ever was, then during the Hobbit, he could have swept through Lorien with ease. He MUST have known that Galadriel would hold one of the three. If they were that important, he would have had them immediately.

: : : Gandalf

: : Unless, of course, he realized that he was not yet powerful enough to challenge the Keepers of the Three with NO chance of failure.

: Well, I think the powers of the One was to bend the will of others to it, and to enforce powers which it's wielder already had. So it magnifies existing powers, and bends lesser wills to it basically.

Which does what for personal combat? It did not seem to help Sauron against Gil-galad and Elendil. All the rings "give power according to the measure of each possessor."

: As for not being sure, well, if he sent a couple of nazgul, with a hoard of orcs and trolls, he could probably take out Lorien quickly enough. Provided that he sent enough orcs of course. Given how large his army was reputed to be, I think he had enough force around 100 years before the war of the rings to take out the Elven havens.

: : Gandalf

You may think so, but Gandalf (the REAL Gandalf:)) does not: Frodo: "What about Rivendell and the Elves? Is Rivendell safe?" Gandalf: "Yes, at present, until all else is conquered. The Elves may fear the Dark Lord, and they may fly before him, but never again will they listen to him or serve him. And here in Rivendell there still live some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise , lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. ...Indeed there is a power in Rivendell to withstand the might of Mordor, for a while: and elsewhere other powers still dwell."

IIRC There is a similar statement made about Lorien and that there was power therein that kept it safe from the Enemy unless Sauron himself should come.

Also in 'Letters' Jrrt says something to the effect that: 'Galadriel conceived of herself as being able to throw down Sauron if she used the ring. If she was able to so would the other Ring Keepers, ESPECIALLY Elrond'. He goes on to say that this was likely just a deceit of the One Ring.

So does anyone have any thoughts on why it would be ESPECIALLY Elrond (my emphasis) as opposed to say 'including' or 'even' Elrond or why mention Elrond at all, after all he is one of the Ring Bearers and thus, defacto, included.