The White Council

Re: How tough were orcs, trolls, and balrogs?

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

snip

: : We don't know how many died on either side in the First Age. And the Orcs did very well in many battles against the Noldor. The most renowned Noldor were those of Hithlum, but they weren't the only ones. The Feanorians and the Nargothrondrim were driven from the northern lands after the Dagor Bragollach, and many of Hithlum's warriors were lost in the initial onslought because they were caught by the rivers of flame. The battles were not as one-sided as you seem to think they were. : : The Noldor absolutely annihilated the orcs in all of their initial meetings. It was only when they were aided by Dragons, Balrogs, and "rivers of flame" that they were able to hold their own against the Noldor. I don't think the battles were one-sided, I just think they would have been if the Orcs hadn't had a lot of help.

I can't remember a single battle were orcs (or evil men for that matter) were victorious over elves, men, or dwarves were the bad guys did not have a massive advantage in numbers. In battles where the numbers were more even the good guys always win. : : : Then one should be careful about saying that men were better warriors than Orcs, I suppose. But the Easterlings and Southrons also won many victories against the Dunedain and the Rohirrim.

See what I said above.

: Actually I was arguing for the strength and valour of the Noldor, not men. The only men I mentioned were the Edain, who, as Tolkien explains, were indeed very good warriors for the most part (and better than most orcs, I would argue).

Amen

: : All the Noldor came close to doing in the Nirnaeth was destroying the armies Morgoth had sent into the field. They had done that before. There was never any hope that they could destroy Morgoth's realm.

: : I disagree, see my argument above.

: : : I find it highly doubtful. Sauron's forces consisted of multitudes of Orcs, Trolls, Men, and who knows what else. The First Age Noldor increased their numbers considerably in Middle-earth, but Gil-galad appears to have led a larger army than any of Beleriand's kings did. The army of the Last Alliance was second only to the army of the Valar at the Breaking of Thangorodrim.

: : How do you know? From what source do you get your numbers?

Elrond says this at the council.

: : The Noldor of the First Age were good, but they weren't that good.

: : They were not only good, they were the best Middle-Earth ever saw.

Agreed

Thorin