The White Council

Re: L-ND-L

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

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: : It`s an interesting idea, but it would only matter if *all* the other descendants of Elros (apart from the Lords of Andunie) were killed in the Akallabeth. We can`t know for sure, but I doubt that is the case. Since Tar-Ancalime at least, almost all her descendants were in line to inherit the throne, and after nearly twenty generations I imagine they would include most of the Numenorean nobility, including those who had settled in Middle Earth. I`m sure that at least a few of those "lords both mighty and evil" who settled far in the south of middle earth had royal ancestors: there must have been tens of thousands of people with a claim, and some will have survived.

: Well, we don't know how many Elrosians were actually in the southern havens. Many,of course, would have joined Ar-Pharazon's great fleet. I think it quite likely that the only Elrosians with a claim might have been a few very young sons who did not accompany forces going to join Ar-Pharazon. It stands to reason, in fact, that Sauron would have engineered this result - not wanting there to be any Elrosian left around whom the remnant power of the King's Men could rally in revenge.

I think you underestimate how many descendants of Elros there must have been, after 25 or so generations. Probably fewer than the number of descendants of Edward I, which is about as many generations back, because the longer life of the heirs of Elros would have led to more frequent intermarriages, and before the shadow at least there would have been no illegitimate children. But still, I think there could have been tens of thousands, and by Michael`s analogy whereby Numenorean lords temporarily out of favour would go to middle-earth, and return if successful like Spanish conquistadors, some of them would certainly have stayed - or left children there.

Besides, the King`s Men never wanted revenge on Sauron, but on the faithful for "betraying" them to the Valar, or at any rate for being on the other side. Illogical as it seems, it`s what they believed. The one group of people they never blamed for the downfall of Numenor were themselves.

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: : I didn`t know that the senior noble house was next in line for the succession if the British royal family died out (or would be if the Howards weren`t barred as Roman Catholics). Is that in the Act of Settlement, or an older tradition? And do you know how far back the royal family is traced for that purpose? I suppose it would make better sense to rally round an undoubted Duke than begin the impossible task of tracing all the descendants of Cerdic, and something like that seems to have happened in the realms of the exile.

: I think the Act of Settlement provides that protestant descendants of Sophia, Electress of Hanover are in the line of succession.

What happens when they are all dead? Is it then that the crown goes to the Duke of Norfolk - or would, if he were a protestant? Mind you, now that I think about it, before the Act of Settlement I don`t beleive we did have a formal law of succession - unlike in France.

You know, the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of a Nazgul being the rightful king of Numenor:) It would give a whole new meaning to the witch-king`s attempt to conquer Arnor, wouldn`t it? But was he one of the three Numenorean Nazgul? I`m not quite sure.