The White Council

Re: Second Age kingdoms...reading

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : Actually, Gil-galad was High King of the Elves of the West, : : : which would include only the Noldor and Sindar.

: : I always took that phrase to mean that he was high king of all : : Elves in the west of Middle-earth - including those : : Sindarin/Silvan realms east of the Misty Mountains. Are you : : saying that the phrase should be taken to refer to Elves west : : of the Mistys?

: "Elves of the West" = Eldar in LOTR. Remember, there were originally only the "west elves" and the "east elves", or Eldar and Wood Elves. Gil-galad was not high king over the Wood Elves.

Of course, however, this raises that spectre of what the Silvan Elves were. App F of LOTR states: "The Elves far back in the Elder Days became divided into two main branches: the West-elves (the Eldar) and the East-elves. Of the latter kind were most of the Elven folk of Mirkwood and Lorien..."

The LOTR did not appear to have the conception of non-Noldor and Sindar Eldar in Middle-earth. Tolkien's post-LOTR writings, IIRC, however did have such groupings as Nandor, Laiquendi, etc who were Eldar by virtue of having at least commenced the Great Journey.

The LOTR definition also makes East-elves and Eldar mutually exclusive. Thus, the Silvan folk appear to be primarily Avari who migrated west at some point since the people of Greenwood and Lorien were of the East Elves.

If I follow this line of logic, in order to incorporate Tolkien's writings that included Nandor, Laiquendi, etc., I think those groupings must be relegated to a small minority among the Silvan Elves.

If I'm correct in the above, then I see your point about being high king of the Elves of the West. Somehow Gil-galad got himsef acknowledged by the West-elves, the Eldar, as a high king. This would by definition, not include the East-elves who, although ruled by Sindarin Eldar were nevertheless in Silvan realms.

: : I'm operating from memory here but IIRC, Gil-galad had very : : little Noldorin blood. That fact might have made him somewhat : : acceptable to the Sindar living in Lindon and Eriador. I : : always viewed his sovereign lordship (in the sense of actual : : governing authority) of those Sindar as being a result of them : : living physically in his realm - just as there were first age : : Sindar who lived in Noldorin realms. There were no sovereign : : Sindarin realms west of the Misty's over which he could be high : : king. There were simply areas in his realm where Sindar lived.

: He was born into a Noldorin family. How "pure" his blood was doesn't seem to be an issue with the Noldor. I would say he ended up king over the Sindar mostly because they ended up under his rule in Beleriand. Cirdan's people were Sindar and they were the first permanent residents of Balar. Gil-galad somehow ended up there along with other Noldor, and after the death of Turgon he became High King of the Noldor, so his status was immediately elevated. When the survivors of Arvernien were taken to Balar, Gil-galad's people were increased in number and would have included both Noldor and Sindar.

Interesting. Here is probably the untimate source of Gil-galad being acknowledged as high king of the Elves of the west. But it's still a mystery as to how that occurred. As you point out, the first inhabitants of Balar were Sindar under Cirdan. It must have been quite interesting how survivors of Doriath would come to recognize Gil-galad's lordship as members of the Sindarin royal house were present

: Cirdan seems to have shared rule of the island with him. Perhaps Gil-galad was simply recognized as king by the Elves there because he was who he was.

: As for whether there were any "sovereign Sindarin realms" in Eriador, we don't know, but there is evidence that Tolkien envisioned Elves living throughout Eriador. All that changed when Sauron overran the region. The same appears to be true of the realms east of the Misty Mountains (which were NOT Sindarin realms -- their peoples were mostly Silvan Elves, and thus these were Silvan realms). After the War of the Elves and Sauron, so far as we can determine, only the two kingdoms of Oropher and Amdir survived.

That's a good point. There might have been sovereign Sindarin realms in Eriador prior to the War of Elves and Sauron. But none are mentioned.

: There was no connection between Gil-galad and the Silvan realms except in the form of the alliance at the end of the Second Age. Unless the cryptic statement about Gil-galad's power extending to the Vales of Anduin implies he established some formal ties with them while Sauron was in Numenor.

: : : In one account Oropher is said to be hostile to the Noldor : : : (and, in fact, it was this account which stated he preferred : : : not to march as part of Gil-galad's army).

: : That's pretty much consistent with my memory; however, I did : : have the impression that even Oropher acknowledged at least the : : tactical command of Gil-galad (notwithstanding his unauthorized : : charge)

: Quite the opposite, his unauthorized charge being the prime example of how he conducted himself.

Really? I thought his actions were somewhat analogous to Gwindor's in the First Age.

: Gil-galad would NOT have ordered Celebrimbor to have nothing to do with Sauron. That would have been highly uncharacteristic of the Elves.

It could be argued that the high king's failure to take more leadership roles left a power vacuum that allowed, in the First Age, the Feanoreans to step in take the lead or go off on their own; and in the Second Age, allowed the high king's theoretical vassals to make a deal with the devil with tragic consequences for all.

: The High Kingship of the First Age came with a high price. Both Fingolfin and Fingon had the highest bounties placed on their heads by Morgoth. Hithlum was also the foremost realm in the wars against Angband. The Union of Maedhros was a last gasp (although a very strident one) of the Feanorians.

I think most of Fingolfin's and Fingon's high price was simply a result of their location. Their realm was close to Morgoth and quite naturally were the first hit when Morgoth went on the offensive. On the other hand, the Feanoreans appeared to be the movers and shakers when the Noldor went on the offensive.

: Until the Dagor Bragollach, it was the High King's cavalry which patrolled Ard-galen. The High King's army was therefore the most powerful one for several centuries.

: Again, in the Second Age, the High King was the one who concluded the treaty with Numenor 100 years prior to the War of the Elves and Sauron,

Who else would it have been. The Numenoreans were a naval power only building coastal or riverine havens. Gil-galad's realm was the only one they would even come in contact with. The only other Elven coastal settlement was Edellhond.

: and it was the High King who fortified (or authorized the fortification) of Eriador against invasion.

Wasn't Eriador part of his core realm?

Russ