The White Council

Re: L-ND-L

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: But Aragorn's claim to rule Gondor was essentially based on the : High Kingship of Isildur, which was not re-asserted by his : descendants before Aragorn. Aragorn's title to the Kingship of : Gondor was, as I read it, through his claim to the : Folk-rulership of the whole of the Dunedain, acting in the : situation of the absence of a direct king ruling over Gondor as : a nation.

I know we debated this a great deal not long ago, and someone found a passage in UNFINISHED TALES where Tolkien asserted that Aragorn was de jure king of both Gondor and Arnor, but he claimed the crown of Gondor as Elendil's Heir, not as Isildur's Heir. He fulfilled a prophecy as Isildur's Heir, not as Elendil's Heir.

In the "Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" the young Aragorn told Arwen he was "Lord of the Dunedain". We have inferred this title probably refers to a lordship over all the Dunedain (the Faithful of Arnor and Gondor), rather than just the Dunedain of the North (since his title with respect to them was Chieftain of the Dunedain). But it may be that Tolkien was referring only to the northern Dunedain and using "Lord" and "Chieftain" interchangeably.

: That one might call Elendil king and Aranarth merely chieftain, : is just a reflection of their circumstances. Gondor had : rejected Arvedui's claim to the dual kingship, so Aranarth : could have held out little hope in that direction, and Arnor : was a devastated wreck, so he cut his title in accordance to : his means.

I agree. It was Aranarth's decision to take the title of king, but the story makes it clear his descendants did not relinquish their royal pretensions with respect to Gondor.

: Elendil's title to be the Folk-king of the Dunedain is : supported by a number of factors. He was the territorial king : of Arnor, whilst his two sons were territorial kings in Anorien : and Ithilien...

Neither Ithilien nor Anorien were ever kingdoms in their own right. They were both merely provinces or territories within the Kingdom of Gondor, which was jointly ruled by Isildur and Anarion, and apparently included also (at that time) Calenardhon, Lebennin, and Belfalas.

: ...However, as High King (what of? if not The Dunedain) his : authority was acknowledged by his sons. This sounds a lot like : the situation of the Noldorin High Kings in relation to the : Kings of Nargothrond, Gondolin, Thargelion, Dor-Lomin etc...

Tolkien doesn't use the term "Dunedain" to refer to the Black Numenoreans. The Dunedain -- after Numenore's fall, at least -- were only those Numenoreans living in Arnor and Gondor and acknowledging the kingship of Elendil's house.

: Another factor is the apparent ready accession : of Numenoreans already settled in Middle Earth at Pelargir, : Belfalas and possibly elsewhere, to admit Elendil's rule. Not : all these folk, even if of the Faithful Party, would have been : Adunieans. So why were they so ready to submit, if Elendil did : not have a supra-territorial right to their allegiance.

Most of the Faithful came from Andunie, and probably most of the people who settled in northern Middle-earth in the lands which later became Arnor and Gondor were from Andunie. But the Faithful who were not from Andunie seem to have accepted the lordship of Valandil's house, even in Numenor.

: : Who would inherit the folk-rulership of the surviving : : Numenoreans, if it existed, is debatable. It seems to have : : exsted (again as a chieftainship rather than a kingship) : : among all three houses of the Edain before they ever went to : : Numenor.

: Elros was heir to the chieftainships of all three Houses. A : chieftain becomes a king when circumstances allow this to : happen. Cerdic was the chieftain of a war band (to judge from : his name a mixed British/Saxon one at that) but his descendants : asserted their right to be called Kings of the Gewissae, then : of the West Saxons, and finally of the English.

I don't believe Elrond and Elros were perceived as heirs in law (here we go again!). I think Elros was made king because of his descent from the kings and lords of the Eldar and Edain, but he may also have distinguished himself in the War of Wrath. Elrond, at least, was there at the Breaking of Thangorodrim. They must have left Maglor when they became old enough and gone looking for their people. In that time, they must have learned of the march of the Host of Valinor and joined it.

[snip]

: But Elendil was descended from the oldest line of descent from : Elros, he only missed out on being king due to a type of Salic : Law which was later abandoned. The existence of the family of : the Lords of Adunie must have been an irritation to the later : Kings of Numenor due to their apparently superior (though not : admissable)claims to the crown.

Elendil had no right to the crown of Numenor. He was descended from the biologically eldest line of descent, but Ar-Zimraphel was descended from the legally eldest line of descent.

Hence, there was no reason for jealousy on the part of the kings over the Lords of Andunie -- they posed no dynastic threats.